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Original poster

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #56

1000 replies

nauticant · 08/12/2025 13:52

Judgment was handed down on 8 December 2025:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6936ce28a6fc97b81e57436a/S_Peggie_v_Fife_Health_Board__Dr_Upton.pdf

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.
The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give more evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to: [email protected]

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025
Thread 53: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404208-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-53 3 September to 1 October 2025
Thread 54: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5418690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-54 from 28 September 2025
Thread 55: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5447019-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-55

OP posts:

Thread gallery

NoWordForFluffy · 08/12/2025 20:16

MyAmpleSheep · 08/12/2025 20:07

You are doing a lot of telling other people what they think. Speaking for myself, when other people tell me what I think, I don’t waste much time worrying about it, or them.

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Including apparently speaking for DU and how he allegedly feels. 🤷‍♀️

MyrtleLion · 08/12/2025 20:17

MarieDeGournay · 08/12/2025 20:11

Another bit that is astonishing - this is a judge writing, not someone who writes the things that go inside greeting cards.

913. But conflict is not always to be expected. There may be circumstances where all staff are content that a trans person uses the facilities of the sex they have the intention to transition to at whatever stage that transition has reached. There may be other circumstances where staff feel uncomfortable to some extent with a trans person being present in the changing room but not wish to make any complaint or issue about it. If there are no complaints or issues raised, that would be an indicator that the wishes of the trans person on which facility to use can be accommodated. The complaint may be raised formally or informally. The nature of the responses of other staff, or lack of same, which may differ from one workplace to another, in our view is a further factor to consider.

This is not about 'circumstances', it is about the law and justice and fairness and equality and that sort of thing. That's why all those people got together in a room and presented their arguments and their evidence in front of a j-u-d-g-e.

I'm sorry, but I'm just going to have to quote that Burke/Lord Coke thing again🙄
It is the function of a judge not to make but to declare the law, according to the golden mete-wand of the law and not by the crooked cord of discretion.

On a t-shirt please, size M - and an XL for Big Sond?😄

As requested...

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #56

NecessaryScene · 08/12/2025 20:17

im assuming you would not think that was ok treatment of any individual of any other category/group

The point here is that this individual is NOT of the category/group he's imitating.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 08/12/2025 20:17

SionnachRuadh · 08/12/2025 20:15

Yes, I think employment judges in particular are very wary of extrapolating from the SCJ to the Workplace Regs. It seems to me that there's obvious read across, but we'll need higher courts to decide that. And since the NHS seems willing to spaff infinite amounts of money up the wall to protect male transvestites' access to female spaces, that might meen the Supreme Court all over again.

Or it might be possible to unblock this by putting a rocket up the bum of the following people:

Bridget Phillipson, Minister for Women and Equalities, currently sitting on the EHRC guidance
Wes Streeting, Health Secretary, who surely has some influence over the approach health trusts take to this litigation
Pat McFadden, Work and Pensions Secretary and boss of the HSE, who therefore owns the Workplace Regs and could issue clarification on what they mean

Their Scottish equivalents too, I suppose, but since Scotgov is openly refusing to abide by the SCJ, the only likely outcome is that they concede with ill grace when Westminster forces them to.

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Wes Sreeting will be important. He did meet with the Darlington nurses and spoke in their favour I think.

moto748e · 08/12/2025 20:17

SionnachRuadh · 08/12/2025 20:15

Or it might be possible to unblock this by putting a rocket up the bum of the following people:

Bridget Phillipson, Minister for Women and Equalities, currently sitting on the EHRC guidance
Wes Streeting, Health Secretary, who surely has some influence over the approach health trusts take to this litigation
Pat McFadden, Work and Pensions Secretary and boss of the HSE, who therefore owns the Workplace Regs and could issue clarification on what they mean

Their Scottish equivalents too, I suppose, but since Scotgov is openly refusing to abide by the SCJ, the only likely outcome is that they concede with ill grace when Westminster forces them to.

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Absolutely this! 💪

usernameinserthere · 08/12/2025 20:18

NebulousSupportPostcard · 08/12/2025 19:35

The second respondent wasn't claiming that Upton has sex and gender of a woman though? I'm pretty sure Big Bad Sond actually asked JR if she wanted to take instruction on that point, during discussion of submissions.

TT doesn't quite capture it as I remember it but:

JR: BMA have said terminology used here isn't medically literate. As a lawyer, not a medic - sex is complicated and nuanced.

J on vast majority of cases

JR Not complicated

J And with regard to R2?

JR Not complicated and not making that argument

J evidence we have is id ing as female...

JR No need to take instructions. FWS has had said it has re bio sex and DU in evidence not talking as a lawyer.

JR This is potential conflict of rights situation

J So how taken into account?

JR IB relied on statutory CoP to balance rights

https://x.com/tribunaltweets/status/1962880207309644085?s=2

Can anyone remember which newspaper or other source live tweeted the submissions?

NC addressed issue of risk around the same time:
NC - any woman could have testified to those facts, all women have experienced it, the risk assessment changes radically if it is a man or a woman.

J - Rs argue that there isn't a correlation between men and TW on the issue of risk
and the EA seeks to avoid stereotypes, what do you say to the suggestion that if the 2nd R is a higher risk, that is stereotyping.

NC - the whole concept of indirect discrim depends on stereotyping, in the EA, and the PSED, for example a height restriction impacts women more
than men. And so with the propensity to violence, MF data was from the ONS, men are more violent than women. JR said it was unreasonable to proceed on the basis that all men are or might be predators. Nevertheless we widely operate SSS, women don't want to get undressed
in the presence of men. And that's not just modesty and preference. The vast majority of sexual offences are perpetrated by men against women, including voyeurism and the like. And we operate SSS to mitigate the risk of those.

J - thank you I have some detailed qs for you
that I will send via email, citations and requests for cases. etc.

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Beautiful thanks

Alpacajigsaw · 08/12/2025 20:18

puppymaddness · 08/12/2025 20:15

Sandie was right when she said he was a weirdo anyway.

weirdo because she's trans?

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You’ll tell me what I think I’m sure, as you have done the rest of the thread.

Been lovely chatting, I’m off to spend the evening with my family 🥰

MrsOvertonsWindow · 08/12/2025 20:19

MrsOvertonsWindow · 08/12/2025 20:17

Wes Sreeting will be important. He did meet with the Darlington nurses and spoke in their favour I think.

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https://www.personneltoday.com/hr/nhs-nurses-meet-wes-streeting-over-single-sex-changing-rooms/

FragilityOfCups · 08/12/2025 20:21

NoWordForFluffy · 08/12/2025 20:16

Including apparently speaking for DU and how he allegedly feels. 🤷‍♀️

Show quote history

Any trans male, or person claiming to speak for one, would only find it harmful to be called a "man" if he didn't really believe men could be female. They would have to believe that man=male, yet that's a 'terf' belief.

If you believe a woman is 'a person of either sex' and a man is 'a person of either sex' then surely being called one or the other is making no comment on your sex but on something no-one can agree the meaning of.

MarieDeGournay · 08/12/2025 20:22

Alpacajigsaw · 08/12/2025 20:15

He had also made no physiological changes to himself either, as confirmed but the judge. Changed his name, grew his hair, put on a bit of makeup it seems, and the idiots at NHS Fife thought that was sufficient to let him in the ladies.

I don’t get why the “he had permission” gets him off the hook either. He knew he was a man. And an intelligent one at that. Did he really need his employer to tell him where to get changed? Someone who managed to get a medical degree couldn’t work that out for himself?

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I thought he did not ask for permission, he took it upon himself to use the women's CR, and when this was noted, he was just allowed to continue.
So a retrospective 'ah sure you're grand' rather than permission.
Bez can translate that into Fifespeak😄

moto748e · 08/12/2025 20:22

Look, don't you wims realise that there's a Labour leadership challenge in the offing! You can't expect the likes of Bridget and Wes... 😁

BiologicallyNebulous · 08/12/2025 20:24

Gloriia · 08/12/2025 20:12

Sorry if this has been discussed but who on earth is this judge Kemp who thinks how 'feminine' someone looks or speaks denotes their sex?

Absolutely! Fucking ridiculous. 😡

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 08/12/2025 20:25

puppymaddness · 08/12/2025 19:40

Sure you can continue to make profoundly degrading and hurtful personal comments regarding the person and appearance/ body of an individual who has been cleared in court of any wrongdoing.

I will continue to point out how disgraceful that is.

Edited

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Repeating the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity, just thought you should know.

Harmonihag · 08/12/2025 20:25

puppymaddness · 08/12/2025 19:48

How would you know?

Because she is a trans woman:

The fact you are trying to argue otherwise is ridiculous. Just be like the other posters and admit you don't care it's much more honest,

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DU is a man. A biological male. With a penis.

If a man decides to trespass in a single sex space for women, then I don’t see why we should have to be polite about him.

Heggettypeg · 08/12/2025 20:26

MarieDeGournay · 08/12/2025 20:22

Edited

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Reminds me of the sort of person who would light up a fag in your living room and then, belatedly, say "Nobody minds if I smoke, do they?"

FragilityOfCups · 08/12/2025 20:26

BiologicallyNebulous · 08/12/2025 20:24

Absolutely! Fucking ridiculous. 😡

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I haven't brought myself to articulate the words I feel about that, but yes, it strikes me as 'surprising'.....

Boiledbeetle · 08/12/2025 20:26

puppymaddness · 08/12/2025 20:09

There is a great deal wrong with being an adult human male and pushing your way into women-only spaces

i don't think DU was
known to do any pushing?

Regardless of your beliefs about her identity, she was cleared of any wrong doing.

All I suggested was that people need not continue to pick apart her personal appearance.

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And as it's a massive part of the judges reasoning the answer is going to remain No. We will continue to discuss his appearance, because it's his appearance that convinced the judge, apparently, when everyone watching just saw a man being questioned.

ProfessorBettyBooper · 08/12/2025 20:28

Boiledbeetle · 08/12/2025 20:11

I'm not working with Dr Upton. To me he is just some bloke in the street.

He's also some bloke without a GRC as far as I'm aware, so still just a man man, no legal paperwork making him not a man on some occasions.

I am under no obligation to control or limit my speech when talking about him.

I am perfectly entitled to say that when Dr Upton was at the tribunal I watched him give his evidence. It was very evident that I was looking at a man and listening to a man.

I will not be forced or compelled to lie about what I witnessed as I watched a man give evidence about how he was not a man.

I cannot find the slightest bit of empathy for a man, who knowing he was a man, decided to claim he was a not a man and start using women only spaces.

He knew some women weren't comfortable about it but he put himself first. So if he is having an emotional experience because some people refuse to buy into his version of reality then tough shit.

What about all the women's emotional experiences every time a man like him enters a space not meant for him?

Did he care or even think about Sandie's emotional experience at finding him, a man, in the women's changing room? No he did not.

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Boiled, I hold you in the highest respect.

We just had an entire thread of 40 pages consumed with one poster.

I'll leave it there.

JoanOgden · 08/12/2025 20:28

SionnachRuadh · 08/12/2025 20:15

Or it might be possible to unblock this by putting a rocket up the bum of the following people:

Bridget Phillipson, Minister for Women and Equalities, currently sitting on the EHRC guidance
Wes Streeting, Health Secretary, who surely has some influence over the approach health trusts take to this litigation
Pat McFadden, Work and Pensions Secretary and boss of the HSE, who therefore owns the Workplace Regs and could issue clarification on what they mean

Their Scottish equivalents too, I suppose, but since Scotgov is openly refusing to abide by the SCJ, the only likely outcome is that they concede with ill grace when Westminster forces them to.

Show quote history

The draft EHRC Code of Practice currently with Bridget Phillipson is only the services and public functions one... the EHRC has yet to update the employment Code of Practice which covers the 1992 regs.

More fun for their new Chair...

MyrtleLion · 08/12/2025 20:30

JoanOgden · 08/12/2025 20:28

More fun for their new Chair...

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The SC ruling indicated that the bar for other legislation is low.

Where sex matters, biological sex should be applied.

FragilityOfCups · 08/12/2025 20:33

This bit did make me laugh (it's part of the NHS Fife policy copied into the Judgment)
"3 Dealing with Grievances / Harassment
It is the policy of NHS Fife to ensure that:
• Where a complaint is received, staff are not discriminated against
in the way that the organisation responds to it;
• Such matters will be taken seriously and investigated promptly
and not dismissed as "over-sensitivity" or "workplace culture" on
the part of the member of staff;"

Surely saying 'only one woman complained' is akin to 'you're being over-sensitive'?!

SternJoyousBeev2 · 08/12/2025 20:35

Scout2016 · 08/12/2025 19:11

My theory is an extension of that one about some men can't get their head round a TIM also being a man. Maybe the judge feels accepting Upton as a male somehow diminishes his category of male. Maybe, having spent hours in close proximity to Upton, he finds him so Other in various ways that he can't or won't accept that he and the Dr share the class of male. Therefore he must be female.
Like how a "no, where are you really from?" racist can't accept that person from a global majority background can be British; he can't be like me at all, he's too Other.

Edited

Yep. I do think there are some men who think this way.

puppymaddness · 08/12/2025 20:35