NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #56

[nauticant]

Judgment was handed down on 8 December 2025:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6936ce28a6fc97b81e57436a/S_Peggie_v_Fife_Health_Board__Dr_Upton.pdf

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.
The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give more evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to: [email protected]

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025
Thread 53: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404208-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-53 3 September to 1 October 2025
Thread 54: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5418690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-54 from 28 September 2025
Thread 55: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5447019-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-55

I have never seen a male cleaner in the ladies' without a sign outside about it so women who aren't happy can go elsewhere. I've also never seen anyone claim they're women!

If that fathead of a judge is actually saying "wot about male cleaners", he's admitting that he knows Upton is a man and saying any man can enter! Not that Upton has the right as a woman, but that he has the right as a man!

I've just watched both the UK BBC news and Reporting Scotland and have to say I was pleasantly surprised at the tone of the coverage. It was made crystal clear that BU is "a biological male who identifies as female".

Got a fair bit of studio discussion too along with input from Maya Forstater and (I think) RMW, there wasn't a caption for the latter and I missed if there was one for Maya.

The moral of the story, ladies, is that we are all going to have to start complaining like hell citing that if we don't we will get fucked over.

What was the comment in the other case? That they know women don't complain so that's why they sided with the man in first place.

I think it’s a dangerous move to say ‘SP wasn’t the right face’ and that’s why the case was lost. That’s a bit like saying only the most virtuous of women should pursue rape cases because anyone with a sexual history will be seen as asking for it. And criticising NC for her ‘too aggressive’ questioning - would her approach be seen as too aggressive in a man? I can see that possibly you’re talking about tactics, but this seems like a dangerous path to go down. Women’s rights and capabilities are not dependent on their (male) crowd-pleasing qualities.

I’m reminded of the Harry Enfield ‘Women, know your limits!’ sketch.

Obviously it won't apply unless the men are specifically exposing themselves or observing women. Just wondering why this isn't happening given the sheer number of men violating women's spaces?

Because, in a space where someone is permitted to be, it's well nigh impossible to prove they're watching more than they should be, or deliberately showing more than they should be, even if they are. It's one of the ways single sex spaces are protective even when not policed at all. If it was a single sex space then the man's presence itself is an indicator of ill intent and you're much more likely to be able to get the voyeurism prosecuted. He has no legitimate reason to be there.

The people who say 'oh well if someone is misbehaving in a changing room, then they can be prosecuted' are totally naive.

Para 92 of the judgment

Quoted from the NHS Policy:

“Types of harassing behaviour:

“The most common forms of harassment are listed below and are specifically directed towards the protected/personal characteristic(s). This can be one significant incident or an ongoing pattern of behaviour. This is not an exhaustive list.

• Offensive jokes, banter and comments
• Use of derogatory terms
• Inappropriate personal questions/comments
• Deliberate and consistent behaviours which demonstrate a non-acceptance of aspects relating to a protected or personal characteristic(s) e.g. failure to use requested gender pronouns for a transitioning individual.”

We're all lovely with men with their dicks in the ladies, wearing bras taking their trousers off. But you dare use correct pronouns and you are harrassing.

Every single one of the NHS witnesses failed to use Uptons requested gender pronouns. All harrassing bastards. Cancel them!

Bloody hell me too, haven't seen that bit!!

All she was asking was for Dr. Upton not to use the changing rooms because she was uncomfortable.

She wasn't trying to convert him to TERFdom or not to transition or whatever...Sandie even tried to use used preferred pronouns in the workplace prior to this conversation.

A reasonable transgender person - there are a few, despite what we get on here - would have recognised that, especially with her history of trauma, it was nothing personal.

And changed elsewhere and that would have been the end of it.

Interesting. I would have thought competing rights might change over time. You have to be careful surely about putting something fixed down, if flexibility is better.

I considered going into law. One reason I decided not to was because I didn't think I was clever enough...

No you don't get it at all.

You talk about consent, but this doesn't have anything to do with consent. it's about the allocation of workplace facilities and discrimination.

I'm not interested in an argument that gets personal, so please don't make sexually harassing / sexually demeaning comments about my person, such as :

you're happy to get undressed with men

Thank you.

It's almost as though, by design, there's no acceptable way for women to say "no" to men in our spaces.

Actually, forget everything before the first comma and it's even more accurate.

I think the judge identifies as stupid.

Agreed.

I would like it to include that whether or not I choose from time to time, or at times exclusively, to use mixed sex spaces is not an acceptance that I may not also choose, at any time, to require a single sex space.

Because depending on the situation and the vibes I get from the man in a space, sometimes it wil matter to me and sometimes it won't. I'll probably swap tops over a sports bra in a mixed changing room and I'll probably strip to my knickers facing the wall in a group of male friends I trust (interestingly, not with just one of them though). But that doesn't mean I'll be comfoartble with an unknown man, or a man who is looking at me more than one usually does in a changing room, or talking to me while I'm trying to change when I didn't do anything to stat or continue a conversation.

Thats why I think this judge is open to complaints of sexism.

Yes, I wonder if that's a good approach. If women up and down the country tell their employers they don't wish to share facilities with TW, this would help

Third spaces is probably the answer. Or something like a swimming pool changing village

Its important to bear in mind:

• What the scotgov's view is on these issues

• The failure of the Scottish legal system to separate government and judiciary

BTW, I've now seen a pic of Upton in his bearded days where his hair looks much darker than in recent pics.

I'm now thinking that the bloke that I saw in the Vic A&E must have been him - seems unlikely that there were two tall men with a liking for eyeliner working in A&E at the same time.

That being the case, there's no way on God's green Earth that anyone could have mistaken him for a woman.

Before anyone asks, I took note of that person's presence because I thought "Oh Lord. Please don't be the one sent to see to me!"

Sorry, but I have enough mental health problems of my own without having to tiptoe around my use of language.

As it happens, the bloke that I saw spoke to the senior doctor on duty and then left.

The lawyers are weighing in
https://x.com/peter_daly/status/1998095581181526033

Why is this absolute arse of a bullshit judgement 300 pages long?

DU has been cleared of all wrongdoing , do people need to continue to pick apart her appearance?

Yes and it would be found in any dictionary of that time from the OED to junior dictionaries.

Ooh thanks! His podcast interview some time ago was really worth a listen.