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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Piece in Guardian - US Republicans want to repeal Amendment 19 giving women the vote.

123 replies

Treaclewell · 04/12/2025 17:02

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/dec/04/women-right-to-vote-disenfranchisement

Land of the free?
Gobsmacked.
Though I think they might have a problem with getting enough turkeys voting for Thanksgiving.

Rightwingers are trying to destroy women’s right to vote | Moira Donegan

Calls for disenfranchisement rest on a single assumption: that women’s citizenship is partial and conditional

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/dec/04/women-right-to-vote-disenfranchisement

OP posts:
MrsBennetsPoorNervesAreBack · 05/12/2025 16:37

nicepotoftea · 05/12/2025 16:25

If there is a trend it is certainly helped by the gaping chasm where a left wing feminist movement might be.

Might have guessed that responsibilty for the extreme views of right wing men would somehow be laid at the feet of left wing women.

SerendipityJane · 05/12/2025 16:44

MrsBennetsPoorNervesAreBack · 05/12/2025 16:37

Might have guessed that responsibilty for the extreme views of right wing men would somehow be laid at the feet of left wing women.

Well the horlicks that is Brexit is Remainers fault, and the shitshow that was 2019-2024 was all Jeremy Corbyns fault, apparently.

GallantKumquat · 05/12/2025 16:47

MrsBennetsPoorNervesAreBack · 05/12/2025 16:20

The article is clear that the 19th amendment isn't under any kind of real threat any time soon, but the general trend is disturbing nonetheless.

I am honestly quite surprised that people are so quick to discuss it as empty scaremongering when it is coming from powerful voices such as Pete Hegseth and Peter Thiel. These are not people on the far fringes of public life in the US.

I'd add, in defense of my post, that people say stupid and offensive things all the time. Trump has repeatedly said things that were cast as virulently homophobic; yet his administration employs many openly gay individuals, and one of the most powerful member of his cabinet is a married gay man Bessent. It's one thing to think that offhand statements are offensive, or even that they demonstrate that Trump is unfit to be president, and another to build a case solely on them that Trump represents an existential threat to gay rights.

MrsBennetsPoorNervesAreBack · 05/12/2025 16:48

SerendipityJane · 05/12/2025 16:44

Well the horlicks that is Brexit is Remainers fault, and the shitshow that was 2019-2024 was all Jeremy Corbyns fault, apparently.

Indeed. And we are repeatedly told that, if we end up with a far right government, it will somehow be the fault of people on the left for not pandering enough to the views of the far right voters.

I admire the agility in all this mental gymnastics but I would prefer that we held people accountable for their own views and actions rather than always looking for a scapegoat.

MrsBennetsPoorNervesAreBack · 05/12/2025 16:52

GallantKumquat · 05/12/2025 16:47

I'd add, in defense of my post, that people say stupid and offensive things all the time. Trump has repeatedly said things that were cast as virulently homophobic; yet his administration employs many openly gay individuals, and one of the most powerful member of his cabinet is a married gay man Bessent. It's one thing to think that offhand statements are offensive, or even that they demonstrate that Trump is unfit to be president, and another to build a case solely on them that Trump represents an existential threat to gay rights.

He employs gay people so he can't be a threat to gay people?

That sounds suspiciously like "I can't be racist because I have a black friend".

The analogy of the boiling frog comes to mind. People may not realise what is happening until it's too late.

ThatZanyFatball · 05/12/2025 16:53

LordEmsworthsGirlfriend · 05/12/2025 15:53

Even if a large swath were trying to do it - which they're not - women's right to vote is a constitutional amendment which means pretty much impossible to overturn.

21st Amendment overturned the 18th, I think? The end of Prohibition. Which is not to say that I think the franchise is in immediate danger but I don't have as much confidence in the security of civil rights in the US as I would have done 5 years ago. It's really alarming.

Really not even going to entertain this. Google what is required to undo a constitutional amendment. The 18th was overturned bc the vast majority of American public wanted it overturned which allowed it to go through the ratification process. The process basically requires massive public support - 3/4 of all states would need to ratify. There are way bigger threats happening to women's rights right now entertaing this panic nonsense is a waste of time.

Besides, according to TRAs any woman who wants to vote could simply identify as a man and have their voter IDs changed upon request, problem solved.

TheMorgenmuffel · 05/12/2025 16:56

I remember when people were saying on here that republicans would never re criminalise abortion and articles talking about it were scaremongering.

ThatZanyFatball · 05/12/2025 16:59

GallantKumquat · 05/12/2025 16:15

There's tendency on the left (though not exclusive to it) to select fringe right-wing figures and project them onto the right as a whole. Fred Phelps, the "God hates fags" preacher, is an earlier example. The logic goes that these figures were saying out loud and offensively what the rest of the opposition to gay marriage were thinking privately. There can can sometimes be an element of truth to that. Clearly, during the 60s and 70s, when it suddenly became impermissible to be visibly racist, many people still harbored racist views and a figure like David Duke articulated them publicly.

But in the case of gay marriage very few of those who opposed it agreed with polemics Phelps, even privately. Harping on Phelps obscured the debate that was much better characterised by the positions of David Frum vs. Andrew Sullivan and the left and main stream media didn't serve the public well by constantly platforming Phelps, which was surely his goal with his brand of outrageousness. The left, IMO, has become addicted to using strawmen rather than debating real issues. Everyone is a Hitler. Everything is racist. The trans debate captures this tendency in its extreme form: Jim Crow, segregation, racism, homophobia, misogyny, genocide, apartheid, Christian intolerance, white supremacy, patriarchy, ableism, body shaming, conversion therapy, and eugenics have all been invoked to shut down conversation about the subject.

With the case of women's right to vote, the phenomena been noted on Mumsnet, that very often the most dogged supporters of trans rights within captured organisations are women, who often subordinate their very considerable responsibilities to supporting trans rights above all other priorities. Why? And what's to be done about it? Obviously the answer is not to take away women's right to vote. That's very silly. But articles like this associate anyone making that observation with an extreme form of active misogyny. Note how many imply or explicitly claim that SexMatters is a front for right wing (American) Christian extremists.

In fact one can detect why there might be a self-reinforcing dynamic at work here: if being against trans rights == being against women's right to vote, then of course the stakes are much higher for defending trans rights, as transphobia becomes the thin edge of the wedge to disenfranchisement.

Edited

Agree 100% this is just another attempt of TRAs to align everyone who opposes gender ideology as extreme MAGA. For people who claim to be so against "the binary" when it comes to their views there are only two sides: extreme left or extreme right. Apparently sex is a spectrum but politics/thought is binary. At least that's what they try to get people to believe to intimidate them against being gender critical.

nicepotoftea · 05/12/2025 17:00

MrsBennetsPoorNervesAreBack · 05/12/2025 16:37

Might have guessed that responsibilty for the extreme views of right wing men would somehow be laid at the feet of left wing women.

I am sure that there are some left wing women in America fighting for women's rights. After all it's a big country.

However, they don't seem to be prominent members of the Democratic Party.

Yes, I do think women like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez have prioritised men's feelings over women's rights. She isn't responsible for the views of right wing men, but she is certainly responsible for attacking women's rights.

nicepotoftea · 05/12/2025 17:02

MrsBennetsPoorNervesAreBack · 05/12/2025 16:48

Indeed. And we are repeatedly told that, if we end up with a far right government, it will somehow be the fault of people on the left for not pandering enough to the views of the far right voters.

I admire the agility in all this mental gymnastics but I would prefer that we held people accountable for their own views and actions rather than always looking for a scapegoat.

When we are specifically talking about women's rights, I think you can hold people accountable for their actions if they claim to be feminists but don't defend women's rights.

GallantKumquat · 05/12/2025 17:04

MrsBennetsPoorNervesAreBack · 05/12/2025 16:52

He employs gay people so he can't be a threat to gay people?

That sounds suspiciously like "I can't be racist because I have a black friend".

The analogy of the boiling frog comes to mind. People may not realise what is happening until it's too late.

I specifically admitted that Trump's comments might rightly be considered offensive and might even imply he's unfit. But yes, I think that by employing Bessent, it demonstrated that Trump was not an existential threat to gay rights (e.g. to the exclusion of gays from public life or worse prohibition) and reports that characterized him in that way based on causal off-hand remarks, did their readers a disservice - as Trump has always had notable friends, advisors and employees who were gay and lesbian and treated them fairly (or at least no worse than their straight counterparts).

SerendipityJane · 05/12/2025 17:04

The 18th was overturned bc the vast majority of American public wanted it overturned

Which completely swerves the fact it was passed in the first place. "bc the vast majority of American public wanted it"

nicepotoftea · 05/12/2025 17:04

SerendipityJane · 05/12/2025 16:44

Well the horlicks that is Brexit is Remainers fault, and the shitshow that was 2019-2024 was all Jeremy Corbyns fault, apparently.

The lack of a viable Labour candidate did increase the Conservative vote. See also Biden.

ThatZanyFatball · 05/12/2025 17:05

MrsBennetsPoorNervesAreBack · 05/12/2025 16:27

It's worth adding that Nigel Farage has described Andrew Tate - who doesn't think women should be allowed to vote - as an "important voice" for young men.

I don't think we should be too complacent about our rights. The right wing in America have already managed to get rid of women having rights over their own bodies. Many of them don't want to stop there.

Right to abortion wasn't enshrined in the constitution like women's right to vote. Frankly Obama had the opportunity to codify abortion rights when he first entered office, and promised to do so as a candidate, but bailed on it once he became president. My guess is that it was a massive miscalculation to keep it an election/fundraising issue thinking it would help the Dems if it was always a ballot issue. I blame Dems more than GOP for the loss of abortion rights.

SerendipityJane · 05/12/2025 17:08

Right to abortion wasn't enshrined in the constitution like women's right to vote

Just to inject some pedantry here, a womans right to vote was not ensrhined in the original constitution It was very studiously ignored (much like slavery). They were the founding fathers, after all.

It needed an amendment to enact them. And will need a court to uphold them.

ThatZanyFatball · 05/12/2025 17:09

MrsBennetsPoorNervesAreBack · 05/12/2025 16:52

He employs gay people so he can't be a threat to gay people?

That sounds suspiciously like "I can't be racist because I have a black friend".

The analogy of the boiling frog comes to mind. People may not realise what is happening until it's too late.

Peter Thiel basically controls the Republican party. Nothing is going to happen to gay rights.

MalagaNights · 05/12/2025 17:17

There are actually factions of young conservatives who believe that the right to vote should be widely revoked for everyone and advocate for a return to a monarchy.

No one is taking them seriously though.

MrsBennetsPoorNervesAreBack · 05/12/2025 17:17

nicepotoftea · 05/12/2025 17:02

When we are specifically talking about women's rights, I think you can hold people accountable for their actions if they claim to be feminists but don't defend women's rights.

Look, I'm not going to deny that a lot of left wing politicians got it wrong on the trans issue. Some are still getting it wrong. Many on the right got it wrong too, at one stage, though they seemed to come to their senses a little earlier and then quickly identified it as an issue that could buy them political advantage. But there are and always have been many left wing feminists who are gender critical.

The trans issue isn't the only issue facing women right now though, and it isn't the only one that matters. There is simply no point in electing people just because they know what a woman is, if they don't see women as equal citizens.

I honestly don't know why the trans issue has to be dragged into every single argument. Yes, many parties on the left have terrible policies on this issue, but that doesn't make it reasonable or rational for people to vote for any far right shit that might be presented as an alternative. People need to own their choices.

MrsBennetsPoorNervesAreBack · 05/12/2025 17:19

MalagaNights · 05/12/2025 17:17

There are actually factions of young conservatives who believe that the right to vote should be widely revoked for everyone and advocate for a return to a monarchy.

No one is taking them seriously though.

I don't know. Peter Thiel is in favour of a monarchy-like system, and he seems to have been pretty successful in helping to propel his protege JD Vance into high office. Might be higher office still by 2028.

MrsBennetsPoorNervesAreBack · 05/12/2025 17:20

ThatZanyFatball · 05/12/2025 17:09

Peter Thiel basically controls the Republican party. Nothing is going to happen to gay rights.

Well, that may be true, but having him in control is a pretty scary prospect.

SerendipityJane · 05/12/2025 17:23

MrsBennetsPoorNervesAreBack · 05/12/2025 17:20

Well, that may be true, but having him in control is a pretty scary prospect.

I think he may have watched this, and concluded that the Federation were the bad guys

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patterns_of_Force

Patterns of Force - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patterns_of_Force

TempestTost · 05/12/2025 18:04

MrsBennetsPoorNervesAreBack · 05/12/2025 16:27

It's worth adding that Nigel Farage has described Andrew Tate - who doesn't think women should be allowed to vote - as an "important voice" for young men.

I don't think we should be too complacent about our rights. The right wing in America have already managed to get rid of women having rights over their own bodies. Many of them don't want to stop there.

That's a very disingenuous way to describe what Farage said. He wasn't saying that AT was good.

TempestTost · 05/12/2025 18:10

SerendipityJane · 05/12/2025 17:04

The 18th was overturned bc the vast majority of American public wanted it overturned

Which completely swerves the fact it was passed in the first place. "bc the vast majority of American public wanted it"

I mean - that's democracy, it's always a possiblity the vast majority might decide one thing or another.

But there is no sense that the vast majority of people want to stop women from voting.

TempestTost · 05/12/2025 18:14

MalagaNights · 05/12/2025 17:17

There are actually factions of young conservatives who believe that the right to vote should be widely revoked for everyone and advocate for a return to a monarchy.

No one is taking them seriously though.

I know someone who thinks this.

I also know a guy who believes voting in most cases, including in the US and the UK, is essentially a kind of trick to make people complicit in their own domination by the people who really control things. He thinks left and right politics are illusions which don't represent substantive differernces, but it all keeps the electorate pacified and distracted. He is not an idiot either, he is odd but very smart and argues his point effectively.

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