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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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GaIadriel · 04/12/2025 23:33

The small and slow gains we have made against these cultural and religious beliefs have only happened because of the hard work of feminists. Not because white, western men are inherently less violent and misogynistic.

I'm not sure this can really be proven.

It's not about being 'less violent', it's about cultural changes that happen quicker in some countries than others.

The jury is still out whether feminists actually won the vote for women. A lot of historians say it was down to women's war effort (solidarity with men rather than separatism) and the fact that Australian women already had the vote which was making the UK look a bit backwards.

Carla786 · 05/12/2025 00:16

GaIadriel · 04/12/2025 23:33

The small and slow gains we have made against these cultural and religious beliefs have only happened because of the hard work of feminists. Not because white, western men are inherently less violent and misogynistic.

I'm not sure this can really be proven.

It's not about being 'less violent', it's about cultural changes that happen quicker in some countries than others.

The jury is still out whether feminists actually won the vote for women. A lot of historians say it was down to women's war effort (solidarity with men rather than separatism) and the fact that Australian women already had the vote which was making the UK look a bit backwards.

But would we have won the vote if there hadn't been suffrage activism before the war effort? Both were key imo. And most suffragettes and suffragists were not separatists.

Surely feminists in Australia were important in that?

Daytimetellyqueen · 05/12/2025 00:40

TwoLeftSocksWithHoles · 28/11/2025 11:25

I do wish newspapers would stop using the term 'honour killing' (even if they do put honour in quotes) and refer to it as premeditated or cold-blooded murder - which is exactly what it is. 😡

This!

Carla786 · 05/12/2025 04:13

GaIadriel · 01/12/2025 21:39

Agree. These 'honour' killings often seem to follow a particular pattern. They're not 'crimes of passion' taking place in dysfunctional relationships where the most common pattern of violence is bi-directional, like we see with western examples. They're frequently well planned and orchestrated.

Often the victim is persuaded to visit family in their 'home' country (although many were UK born) and they then get murdered by cousins/brothers etc. Often the mother/aunts are complicit because they also believe she deserved it. And often the authorities turn a blind eye, especially in cases where the law enforcement is local - e.g. tribal communities.

Going back to the white men thing, the reason so many white western feminists bag on white men is because they're the only demographic they can punch up against. Most of these women are second only in privilege to their husbands, whose wealth and status they benefit from by proxy (despite moaning about the inequality). It's much more problematic for them to criticise ethnic men because they're punching down from a place of privilege!

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Why do you think white Western feminists are automatically married to wealthy high status men?

And do you really think ethnic minority men suffer a lot of racism? It depends where you are but I don't think Britain is a hugely racist country

Doggielovecharlotte · 05/12/2025 11:37

Carla786 · 05/12/2025 04:13

Why do you think white Western feminists are automatically married to wealthy high status men?

And do you really think ethnic minority men suffer a lot of racism? It depends where you are but I don't think Britain is a hugely racist country

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Omg England at least is a systemically oppressive society for people of colour

take a look at the colour of the skin of people In low paid roles - most obv cleaning and food delivery roles when your next out and about - open your eyes 👀

stop and search 👮

GaIadriel · 05/12/2025 11:57

Doggielovecharlotte · 05/12/2025 11:37

Omg England at least is a systemically oppressive society for people of colour

take a look at the colour of the skin of people In low paid roles - most obv cleaning and food delivery roles when your next out and about - open your eyes 👀

stop and search 👮

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Yeah, but isn't that because these people have intentionally come here because they see it as a good place to live, and they're trying to work their way up from the bottom?

I mean, there are few places worldwide that ethnic minorities are more desperate to get into than the UK!

GaIadriel · 05/12/2025 12:06

Carla786 · 05/12/2025 00:16

But would we have won the vote if there hadn't been suffrage activism before the war effort? Both were key imo. And most suffragettes and suffragists were not separatists.

Surely feminists in Australia were important in that?

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Was blinding innocent postal workers and trying to set fire to theatres/churches full of innocent civilians (including women and children) really a pivotal factor? Maybe but I do think they get romanticised.

Doggielovecharlotte · 05/12/2025 12:20

GaIadriel · 05/12/2025 11:57

Yeah, but isn't that because these people have intentionally come here because they see it as a good place to live, and they're trying to work their way up from the bottom?

I mean, there are few places worldwide that ethnic minorities are more desperate to get into than the UK!

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so your assuming they weren’t born here…

your argument is way too simplistic and old hat

“ethnic minorities” when in fact people of colour are the global majority way more in number than white people all over the world

If you talk to some of them working in the low paid roles you would find out many are second and third generations

even if they were first why would they necessarily need to opt for low paying jobs?

taking your argument to its logical conclusion (despite its assumptions) why haven’t they got there if they are working their way up from the bottom?

Carla786 · 05/12/2025 15:14

Doggielovecharlotte · 05/12/2025 11:37

Omg England at least is a systemically oppressive society for people of colour

take a look at the colour of the skin of people In low paid roles - most obv cleaning and food delivery roles when your next out and about - open your eyes 👀

stop and search 👮

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Is that due to racism though? Isn't it more likely to be primarily caused by ethnic minority people coming to England as immigrants and being exploited by people who know they'll often work for lower wages. Racism is surely part of this, but there's also the fact that many African and Asian countries are poorer on average. Poor white European countries like Eastern Europe used too bring poor workers too, it's not just about skin colour

Carla786 · 05/12/2025 15:15

GaIadriel · 05/12/2025 12:06

Was blinding innocent postal workers and trying to set fire to theatres/churches full of innocent civilians (including women and children) really a pivotal factor? Maybe but I do think they get romanticised.

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I said suffrage activism precisely because I think the suffragists and early suffragette movement were most of the reason.

I agree the violent terrorist element of the suffragettes is disgusting.

Doggielovecharlotte · 05/12/2025 15:40

Carla786 · 05/12/2025 15:14

Is that due to racism though? Isn't it more likely to be primarily caused by ethnic minority people coming to England as immigrants and being exploited by people who know they'll often work for lower wages. Racism is surely part of this, but there's also the fact that many African and Asian countries are poorer on average. Poor white European countries like Eastern Europe used too bring poor workers too, it's not just about skin colour

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yes!

Doggielovecharlotte · 05/12/2025 16:46

Doggielovecharlotte · 05/12/2025 15:40

yes!

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In meant yes to your first question - not the rest

mistletoeandandpie · 05/12/2025 16:52

I would like to do same back to him in her honour.

Grammarnut · 05/12/2025 17:48

WolfWolfieWolf · 28/11/2025 10:27

Patriarchy

A particular patriarchal culture.

Grammarnut · 05/12/2025 17:51

GaIadriel · 04/12/2025 23:33

The small and slow gains we have made against these cultural and religious beliefs have only happened because of the hard work of feminists. Not because white, western men are inherently less violent and misogynistic.

I'm not sure this can really be proven.

It's not about being 'less violent', it's about cultural changes that happen quicker in some countries than others.

The jury is still out whether feminists actually won the vote for women. A lot of historians say it was down to women's war effort (solidarity with men rather than separatism) and the fact that Australian women already had the vote which was making the UK look a bit backwards.

Honour killing has not been a part of Western culture for some centuries and I agree about the vote - it became untenable to withold the right to vote once women had shown that they were as capable as men and when other countries (NZ was first, I think) had given women the vote. The UK was looking distinctly behind the times.
Unfortunately some people think they are still living in (their culture's) Middle Ages.

Doggielovecharlotte · 05/12/2025 18:23

Grammarnut · 05/12/2025 17:51

Honour killing has not been a part of Western culture for some centuries and I agree about the vote - it became untenable to withold the right to vote once women had shown that they were as capable as men and when other countries (NZ was first, I think) had given women the vote. The UK was looking distinctly behind the times.
Unfortunately some people think they are still living in (their culture's) Middle Ages.

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I beg to differ - it was only outlawed in uk recently - provercation to murder - meaning the women had done something to offend the man and he felt dishonoured

and just one example of many

Until 1981, men who killed their partners could get more lenient sentences in Italy if the woman had “dishonoured” the family with infidelity.

loads of men plan murder in advance

Grammarnut · 05/12/2025 18:46

Doggielovecharlotte · 05/12/2025 18:23

I beg to differ - it was only outlawed in uk recently - provercation to murder - meaning the women had done something to offend the man and he felt dishonoured

and just one example of many

Until 1981, men who killed their partners could get more lenient sentences in Italy if the woman had “dishonoured” the family with infidelity.

loads of men plan murder in advance

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I meant that it has not been part of Northern European culture for several centuries (though honour killing existed in parts of Greece and Italy more recently, both were colonised by Islam, Greece for centuries and Italy (Sicily, in fact) until c 15th century and this is/was reflected in their murder laws as you say). We didn't have a law in the UK that specified murder from provocation because we did not allow provocation as a defence - or not entirely, I know about the 'nagging wife' excuse - though this defence can be used by women who kill abusive husbands.
Honour killing is a specific thing, based on honour systems that prioritize male self-esteem over women's very existence. The honour system does not just include murder of those women (usually, occasionally young men) who step out of line but also retributional rape (rape of a family's unmarried daughters when a family of higher status has been offended) and restitutional marriage (a woman who is raped must marry her rapist/rape is used to force a marriage on a woman - this one has existed everywhere including the British Isles and can be found in the Old Testament). The entire system exists/existed in e.g. Italy and Greece (not sure about Spain) both of which countries have been until fairly recently ruled by a culture that practices 'honour' in this way. It rubbed off on the local culture (and Sicily only banned restitutional marriage and made it much easier for a man to be prosecuted for rape in the 60s after a rape victim took her abuser to court, unusually backed by her family, and won; later she was received by the Pope, making it clear Sicily was acting against the Church).

Doggielovecharlotte · 05/12/2025 18:57

Grammarnut · 05/12/2025 18:46

I meant that it has not been part of Northern European culture for several centuries (though honour killing existed in parts of Greece and Italy more recently, both were colonised by Islam, Greece for centuries and Italy (Sicily, in fact) until c 15th century and this is/was reflected in their murder laws as you say). We didn't have a law in the UK that specified murder from provocation because we did not allow provocation as a defence - or not entirely, I know about the 'nagging wife' excuse - though this defence can be used by women who kill abusive husbands.
Honour killing is a specific thing, based on honour systems that prioritize male self-esteem over women's very existence. The honour system does not just include murder of those women (usually, occasionally young men) who step out of line but also retributional rape (rape of a family's unmarried daughters when a family of higher status has been offended) and restitutional marriage (a woman who is raped must marry her rapist/rape is used to force a marriage on a woman - this one has existed everywhere including the British Isles and can be found in the Old Testament). The entire system exists/existed in e.g. Italy and Greece (not sure about Spain) both of which countries have been until fairly recently ruled by a culture that practices 'honour' in this way. It rubbed off on the local culture (and Sicily only banned restitutional marriage and made it much easier for a man to be prosecuted for rape in the 60s after a rape victim took her abuser to court, unusually backed by her family, and won; later she was received by the Pope, making it clear Sicily was acting against the Church).

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There you go

unfortunately until the 80s judges were sympathetic to men who were provoked

and in theory you can offer it as a defence it just won’t automatically get you anywhere

“prioritise male self-esteem over women's very existence” is plain old femicide

the point of these posts is to debunk the myths that men and families involved in this are worse than male white perpetrators (if they are from Asian cultures)

think coercive control

and beware women joining the white men in Thinking it’s worse - it’s a smokescreen

Carla786 · 05/12/2025 19:30

Grammarnut · 05/12/2025 18:46

I meant that it has not been part of Northern European culture for several centuries (though honour killing existed in parts of Greece and Italy more recently, both were colonised by Islam, Greece for centuries and Italy (Sicily, in fact) until c 15th century and this is/was reflected in their murder laws as you say). We didn't have a law in the UK that specified murder from provocation because we did not allow provocation as a defence - or not entirely, I know about the 'nagging wife' excuse - though this defence can be used by women who kill abusive husbands.
Honour killing is a specific thing, based on honour systems that prioritize male self-esteem over women's very existence. The honour system does not just include murder of those women (usually, occasionally young men) who step out of line but also retributional rape (rape of a family's unmarried daughters when a family of higher status has been offended) and restitutional marriage (a woman who is raped must marry her rapist/rape is used to force a marriage on a woman - this one has existed everywhere including the British Isles and can be found in the Old Testament). The entire system exists/existed in e.g. Italy and Greece (not sure about Spain) both of which countries have been until fairly recently ruled by a culture that practices 'honour' in this way. It rubbed off on the local culture (and Sicily only banned restitutional marriage and made it much easier for a man to be prosecuted for rape in the 60s after a rape victim took her abuser to court, unusually backed by her family, and won; later she was received by the Pope, making it clear Sicily was acting against the Church).

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Great post. Sadly the kind of misogynistic honour culture in Elena Ferrante's Neapolitan Quartet has persisted there for a long time.

I wasn't aware of the potential link with Islamic colonisation of Greece & Sicily, will investigate this

I thought crime of passion defence did have a history in UK - I'll check.

Platypusdiver · 05/12/2025 20:01

I read the first page, then hopped to the last, where the conversation has taken a different turn. But going back to the original topic of honour killings.

I live in a scandinavian country and work as a teacher in a school with about 95% immigrant background. The school counsellor recently introduced staff training after seeing an increase in the number of girls reporting this in our school over the past couple of years. Btw it is called honour-related violence here.

We also had an outside group come in. They were a group of kurdish men who have set up community-based networks for teenage boys to educate them out of the honour mindset. I found it really interesting to listen to and I hope that they grow and are successful.

Unfortuantely, due to the nature of the violence it is very hard for women to instigate the change. Ironically to break the cycle of male violence it needs males to stop it. If the teenagers can understand how barbaric it is and develop empathy, there is hope. The law seems to do little.

GaIadriel · 05/12/2025 20:15

Doggielovecharlotte · 05/12/2025 12:20

so your assuming they weren’t born here…

your argument is way too simplistic and old hat

“ethnic minorities” when in fact people of colour are the global majority way more in number than white people all over the world

If you talk to some of them working in the low paid roles you would find out many are second and third generations

even if they were first why would they necessarily need to opt for low paying jobs?

taking your argument to its logical conclusion (despite its assumptions) why haven’t they got there if they are working their way up from the bottom?

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A huge proportion (maybe most) of them aren't born here. Google is your friend. Deliveroo/Just Eat etc have been getting massive stick for employing illegal and migrant workers. I'm amazed you haven't read about it.

As somebody who is driving heavy plant vehicles around Birmingham city centre most days I can absolutely tell you most aren't born here.

Doggielovecharlotte · 05/12/2025 20:26

GaIadriel · 05/12/2025 20:15

A huge proportion (maybe most) of them aren't born here. Google is your friend. Deliveroo/Just Eat etc have been getting massive stick for employing illegal and migrant workers. I'm amazed you haven't read about it.

As somebody who is driving heavy plant vehicles around Birmingham city centre most days I can absolutely tell you most aren't born here.

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Done all of that

I’m just not burying my head in the sand and looking for simple solutions

I talk to people too about their stories!

Doggielovecharlotte · 05/12/2025 20:26

Google isn’t the messiah

Carla786 · 06/12/2025 00:17

GaIadriel · 05/12/2025 20:15

A huge proportion (maybe most) of them aren't born here. Google is your friend. Deliveroo/Just Eat etc have been getting massive stick for employing illegal and migrant workers. I'm amazed you haven't read about it.

As somebody who is driving heavy plant vehicles around Birmingham city centre most days I can absolutely tell you most aren't born here.

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Yes this is very bad. Facilitates exploitation of illegal migrant workers and also enables assault cases by delivery drivers (several ones by illegal migrants have been reported). I don't use deliveries any more as I don't trust the companies.

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