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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

No child is born in the wrong body - Kemi Badenoch. Letter to Wes Streeting

355 replies

IwantToRetire · 26/11/2025 01:06

Saw this being shared on facebook. Quote:

No child is born in the wrong body.

I cannot believe we are back to square one, with NHS England backing an experimental trial of puberty blockers on healthy, vulnerable children, ignoring the damage already done.

The No1 rule of medicine is "do no harm".
This is activist ideology masquerading as research.

I'm urging MPs of all parties to sign this letter from me and Shadow Health Secretary Stuart Andrew for Daventry, calling for Wes Streeting to step in and stop this trial before more damage is done to children who are too young to understand what they are doing to themselves.

https://www.facebook.com/kemibadenoch/posts/pfbid02c3rSBKCtNCY5qHeLVtJN94j4MhB7fZnoW159VXbzJUBdrMrDDbC3C4v6KX3W7MEbl

No child is born in the wrong body - Kemi Badenoch. Letter to Wes Streeting
No child is born in the wrong body - Kemi Badenoch. Letter to Wes Streeting
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spannasaurus · 26/11/2025 11:11

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Its important because children are at risk of sterility, loss of sexual function and reduced cognitive ability

TheKeatingFive · 26/11/2025 11:12

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What mental health treatments are you talking about?

We keep being told that trans identification is not a mental health issue, so I'm not sure of the relevance of that point.

To reiterate. These are perfectly healthy children.

Helleofabore · 26/11/2025 11:12

Well. That is interesting.

Swearing in a post is now considered violence.

That really is remarkable and it is very controlling behaviour. But apparently, telling mothers on a parenting forum that they should be directing their attentions elsewhere because a poster has decided that a parent on Mumsnet has no possible reason to be interested in this trial is all good and righteous.

And any post asking questions to establish thinking is also 'cajoling and bullying'.

endofthelinefinally · 26/11/2025 11:14

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Healthy children?

PrettyDamnCosmic · 26/11/2025 11:15

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Helleofabore · 26/11/2025 11:16

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Did those children receive medication that was aimed at holding off puberty so that they then could go onto cross sex hormones and make extreme body modifications to match their philosophical belief about themselves?

Helleofabore · 26/11/2025 11:20

There is now plenty of discussion about the Dutch Protocol and how flawed the basis of this treatment plan was from the start.

Here is a documentary on the Dutch Protocol

There are currently almost 3,000 young people on the waiting list for gender care in the Netherlands. They are vulnerable adolescents who are frequently subjected to discrimination. Many of them suffer severe mental distress. Doctors at the gender clinic in Amsterdam are pioneers in care for transgender young people. The treatment developed here years ago is now used worldwide. Now, criticism is growing. International experts are questioning the scientific evidence put forward by the clinicians in Amsterdam. Zembla investigates the Dutch transgender protocol.

What this covers is that no gender clinic has been able to replicate the results of the Dutch paper. One patient of the group died due to the surgery complications of gender surgery and even de Vries questioned why no one seemed interested in that patient while accepting the study. Dr Riittakerttu Kaltiala (Professor of Pschyiatry, Tampere and who set up gender clinics) and Mikael Landen (Professor of Pscyhiatry, Gotenberg) and Dr Angela Samfjord (Head of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry at the University of Gotenberg ) all are interviewed about the quality of the study behind the protocol and its flaws that became apparent later. Ie. The 55 patients is so small and de Vries acknowledges that they are not really similar to todays cohort of adolescent transitioners. That only 32 filled in the survey with positive results. The others were not chased up and one died.

Gerard van Breukelen, a professor of Methodology at Maastricht university goes on record to say that the methodology of that initial study was weak. There was no control group so the conclusions should not have been considered as strong as the gender clinicians claimed. Other academics declined to be interviewed due to fear for their employment as it is such a contentious issue. When talking to de Vries, she mentions that many more studies have been done by other countries now. And the doco makers mention that all those studies de Vries refer to have stated that the evidence is low quality. A Swedish team led by Landen was asked to do a full review by the Swedish government and he confirms that the evidence was just not there. Hence the Swedish government withdrew treatment.

The mention the Cass review and discussion ‘locking in’ of identities contradicts the ‘time to think’ narrative. They interview three transitioners. One detransitionered before surgery and one is happy with transition but not with the process the team followed. The one who detransitioned was put on hormones despite not even socially transitioning as he felt wearing a dress was ‘a man wearing a dress’. But was put on hormones but didn’t go through surgery after all. It also wraps up with Lucy who was stuck on the waiting list and who believes that if she was given PBs, she would not have ended up transitioning. She has obviously detransitioned now after double mastectomy and testosterone, then ovaries and uterus removal.

Here is the peer reviewed reanalysis of the UK study mentioned in the documentary. McPherson & Freedman both worked on the initial analysis of the patient clinical data.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0092623X.2023.2281986

Psychological Outcomes of 12–15-Year-Olds with Gender Dysphoria Receiving Pubertal Suppression in the UK: Assessing Reliable and Clinically Significant Change

Susan McPherson & David E. P. Freedman

Published online: 29 Nov 2023

Abstract

The evidence base for psychological benefits of GnRHA for adolescents with gender dysphoria (GD) was deemed “low quality” by the UK National Institute of Health and Care Excellence. Limitations identified include inattention to clinical importance of findings. This secondary analysis of UK clinical study data uses Reliable and Clinically Significant Change approaches to address this gap. The original uncontrolled study collected data within a specialist GD service. Participants were 44 12–15-year-olds with GD. Puberty was suppressed using “triptorelin”; participants were followed-up for 36 months. Secondary analysis used data from parent-report Child Behavior Checklists and Youth Self-Report forms. Reliable change results: 15–34% of participants reliably deteriorated depending on the subscale, time point and parent versus child report. Clinically significant change results: 27–58% were in the borderline (subclinical) or clinical range at baseline (depending on subscale and parent or child report). Rates of clinically significant change ranged from 0 to 35%, decreasing over time toward zero on both self-report and parent-report. The approach offers an established complementary method to analyze individual level change and to examine who might benefit or otherwise from treatment in a field where research designs have been challenged by lack of control groups and low sample sizes.

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Helleofabore · 26/11/2025 11:21

Here is a look at the ethics of the Dutch Protocol looking back on it for anyone who has not seen it.

A Legal Assessment of the Dutch Protocol for Transgender Care to children: Evidence, Ethics and Procedure

Smeehuijzen, L., Smids, J., Hoekstra, C

March 2025

https://www.boomportaal.nl/tijdschrift/FenR/FENR-D-24-00001

Abstract: A Legal Assessment of the Dutch Protocol for Transgender Care to Children: Evidence, Ethics and Procedure In the Netherlands, healthcare for children with gender dysphoria is provided based on the Dutch Protocol . Typically, medical protocols are guiding in the interpretation of the medical-professional standard. For a protocol to be guiding, it (i) must be evidence-based, (ii) should carry limited medical-ethical weight, and (iii) have been developed through an adequate process. This article disputes the first criterion as highly debatable and maintains that the second and third criteria fail to be satisfied. Consequently, the Dutch Protocol cannot be regarded as a legitimate guiding standard.

SEGM Summary
In this article, two Dutch legal experts (Smeehuijzen and Hoekstra) and a medical ethicist (Smids) evaluate whether the Dutch Protocol as laid out in the 2018 Dutch guideline for somatic gender care (i.e., medical and surgical interventions) meets the necessary requirements for it to have authority in legal settings be recognized as the standard of care. Of note, the 2018 Dutch Protocol substantively departed from the original Dutch Protocol by reducing lower age limits for puberty blockers, cross-sex hormones, and mastectomy, and by dropping the requirement of pre-existing childhood gender dysphoria as a condition for obtaining medical and surgical interventions in adolescence.

The authors outline the three key criteria required in the Netherlands for a standard of care to be considered legally authoritative, namely: (1) the standard is evidence-based, (2) it is not of an ethical nature, and (3) it was established through a properly designed process. They find that the 2018 Dutch Protocol fails to meet these criteria and thus conclude that courts should not rely on it.

SEGM comment: Although this article focuses on the Dutch medical and legal situation, it is likely to have considerable cross-over relevance to other countries. The 2018 Dutch protocol's criteria and development bear significant resemblance to the 2017 Endocrine Society guideline and the WPATH Standards of Care, both of which have been identified as the source of all other "affirmative" guidelines. Practitioners relying on such guidelines may find that poorly evidenced and/or inadequate medical treatment protocols and clinical practice guidelines might not be accepted as the medical standard of care in adversarial legal settings.

https://www.boomportaal.nl/tijdschrift/FenR/FENR-D-24-00001

borntobequiet · 26/11/2025 11:22

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That’s pretty extreme, given that normal puberty starts much earlier, and it’s recommended that time spent on these drugs is limited to the shortest feasible. I don’t think it’s likely to be true.

brown31c · 26/11/2025 11:22

Shocking

TheKeatingFive · 26/11/2025 11:27

borntobequiet · 26/11/2025 11:22

That’s pretty extreme, given that normal puberty starts much earlier, and it’s recommended that time spent on these drugs is limited to the shortest feasible. I don’t think it’s likely to be true.

7 years on puberty blockers for precocious puberty would be an extraordinary length of time. There is no way they'd hold off to 13 when it would be reasonably result to go through puberty at 10.

ThatCleaningLady · 26/11/2025 11:28

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Helleofabore · 26/11/2025 11:28

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So, let's see what you did back there.

I had asked reasonable questions and you then posted:

"You're not going to change my mind and everyone with the power to have a say in this obviously agrees with me, hence the trial. I'd channel my energies to getting upset about things you can control.."

To which I posted a response that included reminding you that you made a judgement that no parent on this thread could possibly have any need to be interested in this discussion and I used two swear words.

But yet, we on this thread have been now accused of cajoling, bullying, being unhinged and violent.

I believe you have just written this post as some sort of justification to yourself that you don't have to engage with deeper discussion about this topic.

You can be as condescending as all fuck, but anyone responding to that condescension should be positioned as being violent. That is DARVO in action.

Helleofabore · 26/11/2025 11:30

TheKeatingFive · 26/11/2025 11:27

7 years on puberty blockers for precocious puberty would be an extraordinary length of time. There is no way they'd hold off to 13 when it would be reasonably result to go through puberty at 10.

Yes. When everything we read is that they allow puberty to start again from 9 years old or so, this seems to be far too long.

ThatCleaningLady · 26/11/2025 11:30

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Helleofabore · 26/11/2025 11:32

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Is your niece female and taking these drugs for precocious puberty, or a male child?

TheKeatingFive · 26/11/2025 11:32

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Yes. In this case it was to delay puberty. It is extraordinary that a child would spend 7 years on them when they could go through puberty, pretty normally, at 10.

ThatCleaningLady · 26/11/2025 11:33

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TheKeatingFive · 26/11/2025 11:33

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What was your niece put on puberty blockers at 6 for then? If not precocious puberty?

ThatCleaningLady · 26/11/2025 11:34

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ThatCleaningLady · 26/11/2025 11:35

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Helleofabore · 26/11/2025 11:36

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"No results found for "why would a female child be on puberty blockers until around the age of 13?"."

Hence, I asked the question. In fact, the thing that did come up first was for gender affirming treatment. The whole first page came up with gender dysphoria.

Perhaps since you are using your niece or nephew as supporting your arguments here, you might like to explain what those drugs were treating? Was it gender dysphoria?

Igneococcus · 26/11/2025 11:36

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Why don't you just say it?

ThatCleaningLady · 26/11/2025 11:38

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ThatCleaningLady · 26/11/2025 11:39

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