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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #55

1000 replies

nauticant · 19/11/2025 22:05

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give more evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to: [email protected]

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025
Thread 53: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404208-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-53 3 September to 1 October 2025
Thread 54: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5418690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-54 from 28 September 2025

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49
NebulousProfessorSupportPostcard · 07/12/2025 18:39

I am hopelessly holding out for 10am decision tomorrow. Is anyone else? 😁

JustAn0therUsername · 07/12/2025 18:40

NebulousProfessorSupportPostcard · 07/12/2025 18:39

I am hopelessly holding out for 10am decision tomorrow. Is anyone else? 😁

Yes - I have a meeting then so hopefully you can all get the news and I can catch up after!

OdeToTheNorthWestWind · 07/12/2025 18:50

JustAn0therUsername · 07/12/2025 18:40

Yes - I have a meeting then so hopefully you can all get the news and I can catch up after!

I've been holding out for a 10 a.m. announcement every day for the last fortnight! 😁

KnottyAuty · 07/12/2025 20:24

prh47bridge · 07/12/2025 09:38

In that case I am surprised you were threatened with a ban over one edit. However, if you edited the page repeatedly that would be classed as edit warring, which can attract a ban.

Ok thanks - I was very shocked. I’m relieved to know that’s not normal but I had no idea about how to appeal. What’s the method? Thanks and sorry for the de-rail

SidewaysOtter · 07/12/2025 20:40

MarieDeGournay · 07/12/2025 14:47

... and in the cupboard is a life-size hologram of Naomi Cunningham saying things like 'Do you agree with me that.. 'The nature of this is I ask the questions'
and the truly terrifying 'Good afternoon'.

I have an imaginary Naomi looking over my shoulder every time I type an email or internal message, and I imagine having to explain what I’ve done/said/written to her in a court or tribunal.

SidewaysOtter · 07/12/2025 20:49

There’s a similar article on Yahoo: https://uk.news.yahoo.com/nhs-fife-hires-external-pr-113128708.html

Lighthouse PR look like they’re more at the ‘crisis PR/arse-saving’ end of the PR spectrum than the “write a readable press release” end… https://lighthousepr.co.uk/ (Although they don’t appear to have been running for long, so it’s not like Fife have brought in a big hitter)

NHS Fife hires external PR advisers ahead of Sandie Peggie tribunal ruling

NHS Fife has hired external spin doctors to prepare senior bosses ahead of the outcome of the Sandie Peggie employment tribunal.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/nhs-fife-hires-external-pr-113128708.html

MarieDeGournay · 07/12/2025 20:51

HannahinHampshire · 07/12/2025 16:17

'Bee-loud bonnet'? That looks like a mash-up of 'bee in your bonnet' and WB Yeats' [s] 'bee-loud glade' in 'The Lake Isle of Innisfree'Smile

TheAutumnCrow · 07/12/2025 21:00

KnottyAuty · 07/12/2025 20:24

Ok thanks - I was very shocked. I’m relieved to know that’s not normal but I had no idea about how to appeal. What’s the method? Thanks and sorry for the de-rail

I like the ‘de-rails’ on these threads, many of which have proved to be very important.

Personally I find Wiki an issue. And AI esp ChatGPT. Threads on that generic topic per se often don’t have much traction unless actual examples spring from threads like this.

So afaic crack on.

SidewaysOtter · 07/12/2025 21:09

And AI esp ChatGPT.

Chat GPT regularly deletes my questions for being the equivalent of ‘breaking talk guidelines’ Hmm

MarieDeGournay · 07/12/2025 21:42

TheAutumnCrow · 07/12/2025 21:00

I like the ‘de-rails’ on these threads, many of which have proved to be very important.

Personally I find Wiki an issue. And AI esp ChatGPT. Threads on that generic topic per se often don’t have much traction unless actual examples spring from threads like this.

So afaic crack on.

We like derails!
[it's OK, nobody died, I checked]

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #55
prh47bridge · 08/12/2025 00:14

KnottyAuty · 07/12/2025 20:24

Ok thanks - I was very shocked. I’m relieved to know that’s not normal but I had no idea about how to appeal. What’s the method? Thanks and sorry for the de-rail

It depends what you are appealing!

Ideally, before making an edit, you should check on the Talk page for the article (which you can get at by clicking "Talk" near the top of the article - apologies if I'm teaching you to suck eggs here) and see if it has already been discussed. If it has and a consensus has been reached, you should re-open the discussion, politely explaining why you think the topic needs to be revisited. However, once consensus has been reached, you are expected to accept it even if you disagree with it. There is no set mechanism for appealing.

If you don't see a discussion on the Talk page and someone objects to an edit you have made, the accepted approach is to raise the matter on the Talk page and try to reach a consensus with other editors.

If you are threatened with a ban over a single edit, your first step is to remind whoever is threatening you that they are required by Wikipedia to assume you are acting in good faith and that they should discuss the disagreement with you, not threaten a ban. If the editor concerned continues to behave badly, you can report them to the Administrator's Noticeboard, but you should use this cautiously. They don't want every spat between editors to be referred to them. You can find it at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard - Wikipedia.

If you are actually blocked from editing, you put the following text on your User Talk page - that is a page called User_talk:your username:

{{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}

This attracts the attention of administrators who can review what has happened and decide whether the block is justified.

Changing the way Wikipedia reports GC and trans issues, however, is a much bigger problem. Right now, it is influenced by the fact the Council of Europe condemned GC and linked it to virulent attacks on the rights of LGBTI individuals, UN Women has described GC as an extreme anti-rights movement that employs hate propaganda and disinformation, and academics have described the GC movement as transphobic and linked it to promotion of disinformation. Personally, I don't think Wikipedia is the place to have this battle. If we shift views elsewhere, I would expect Wikipedia to follow. And it is vital that we shift views in Europe. We don't want the ECHR to overrule the Supreme Court.

If you do have a problem, feel free to rope me in by sending me a PM. I will be happy to advise and may be able to intervene if you are being treated unfairly.

Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard

JudeyJudey · 08/12/2025 07:13

Today’s the day. I can feel it.

KnottyAuty · 08/12/2025 07:25

prh47bridge · 08/12/2025 00:14

It depends what you are appealing!

Ideally, before making an edit, you should check on the Talk page for the article (which you can get at by clicking "Talk" near the top of the article - apologies if I'm teaching you to suck eggs here) and see if it has already been discussed. If it has and a consensus has been reached, you should re-open the discussion, politely explaining why you think the topic needs to be revisited. However, once consensus has been reached, you are expected to accept it even if you disagree with it. There is no set mechanism for appealing.

If you don't see a discussion on the Talk page and someone objects to an edit you have made, the accepted approach is to raise the matter on the Talk page and try to reach a consensus with other editors.

If you are threatened with a ban over a single edit, your first step is to remind whoever is threatening you that they are required by Wikipedia to assume you are acting in good faith and that they should discuss the disagreement with you, not threaten a ban. If the editor concerned continues to behave badly, you can report them to the Administrator's Noticeboard, but you should use this cautiously. They don't want every spat between editors to be referred to them. You can find it at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard - Wikipedia.

If you are actually blocked from editing, you put the following text on your User Talk page - that is a page called User_talk:your username:

{{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}

This attracts the attention of administrators who can review what has happened and decide whether the block is justified.

Changing the way Wikipedia reports GC and trans issues, however, is a much bigger problem. Right now, it is influenced by the fact the Council of Europe condemned GC and linked it to virulent attacks on the rights of LGBTI individuals, UN Women has described GC as an extreme anti-rights movement that employs hate propaganda and disinformation, and academics have described the GC movement as transphobic and linked it to promotion of disinformation. Personally, I don't think Wikipedia is the place to have this battle. If we shift views elsewhere, I would expect Wikipedia to follow. And it is vital that we shift views in Europe. We don't want the ECHR to overrule the Supreme Court.

If you do have a problem, feel free to rope me in by sending me a PM. I will be happy to advise and may be able to intervene if you are being treated unfairly.

Thanks that’s brilliant! I thought this person was completely OTT. It was a a few months back and I’d come to the same conclusion as you that this wasn’t one to waste my efforts on. But I shall bide my time and then return to it when public opinion has shifted a bit more

MyThreeWords · 08/12/2025 07:44

SidewaysOtter · 07/12/2025 20:49

There’s a similar article on Yahoo: https://uk.news.yahoo.com/nhs-fife-hires-external-pr-113128708.html

Lighthouse PR look like they’re more at the ‘crisis PR/arse-saving’ end of the PR spectrum than the “write a readable press release” end… https://lighthousepr.co.uk/ (Although they don’t appear to have been running for long, so it’s not like Fife have brought in a big hitter)

Edited

That's a great picture of SP, poised between images of man and woman.

ArabellaSaurus · 08/12/2025 07:48

prh47bridge · 08/12/2025 00:14

It depends what you are appealing!

Ideally, before making an edit, you should check on the Talk page for the article (which you can get at by clicking "Talk" near the top of the article - apologies if I'm teaching you to suck eggs here) and see if it has already been discussed. If it has and a consensus has been reached, you should re-open the discussion, politely explaining why you think the topic needs to be revisited. However, once consensus has been reached, you are expected to accept it even if you disagree with it. There is no set mechanism for appealing.

If you don't see a discussion on the Talk page and someone objects to an edit you have made, the accepted approach is to raise the matter on the Talk page and try to reach a consensus with other editors.

If you are threatened with a ban over a single edit, your first step is to remind whoever is threatening you that they are required by Wikipedia to assume you are acting in good faith and that they should discuss the disagreement with you, not threaten a ban. If the editor concerned continues to behave badly, you can report them to the Administrator's Noticeboard, but you should use this cautiously. They don't want every spat between editors to be referred to them. You can find it at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard - Wikipedia.

If you are actually blocked from editing, you put the following text on your User Talk page - that is a page called User_talk:your username:

{{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}

This attracts the attention of administrators who can review what has happened and decide whether the block is justified.

Changing the way Wikipedia reports GC and trans issues, however, is a much bigger problem. Right now, it is influenced by the fact the Council of Europe condemned GC and linked it to virulent attacks on the rights of LGBTI individuals, UN Women has described GC as an extreme anti-rights movement that employs hate propaganda and disinformation, and academics have described the GC movement as transphobic and linked it to promotion of disinformation. Personally, I don't think Wikipedia is the place to have this battle. If we shift views elsewhere, I would expect Wikipedia to follow. And it is vital that we shift views in Europe. We don't want the ECHR to overrule the Supreme Court.

If you do have a problem, feel free to rope me in by sending me a PM. I will be happy to advise and may be able to intervene if you are being treated unfairly.

Thank you for this. I once attended a workshop on Wiki editing, as part of an initiative to try and get more women involved, but haven't really done anything since.

Seems a very useful endeavour to try to counter bias there.

Needapadlockonmyfridge · 08/12/2025 07:57

So..... today?
Early Christmas prezzie from Big Sond?
Please!

Peregrina · 08/12/2025 08:11

Early Christmas prezzie from Big Sond?

Only if it's favourable. I had thought that the Leonardo case was pretty convincing - hadn't reckoned on a biased judge.

IfalldownbutIgetupagain · 08/12/2025 09:14

It can’t be today. It’s my one day to get all my Christmas shopping done. I have yet to decide if this involves going into the big city or lying in bed on t’internet but it has to happen. I’m thinking the big city is safer as less distractions there. Looking at you all with a stern glare.

CrocsNotDocs · 08/12/2025 09:16

It needs to be today. It’s 7.15pm in my part of the world and the kids re tired out from a big day so aren’t annoying me and I have 2/3 of a bottle of wine in the fridge.

SirChenjins · 08/12/2025 09:30

Peregrina · 08/12/2025 08:11

Early Christmas prezzie from Big Sond?

Only if it's favourable. I had thought that the Leonardo case was pretty convincing - hadn't reckoned on a biased judge.

Same. I have a horrible feeling that this will go the same way and an appeal by SP'a team in rhe new year.

PinkFootstool · 08/12/2025 09:31

JudeyJudey · 08/12/2025 07:13

Today’s the day. I can feel it.

No, it'll be tomorrow because I'm really busy with work and travelling on both Tuesday and Wednesday so I won't be able to read anything at all or keep up with things on social media. Therefore tomorrow is guaranteed.

OpheliaWitchoftheWoods · 08/12/2025 09:33

The Leonardo case appeal will go through - how can it not - and will be most interesting as was Maya's in similar circumstances.

MarieDeGournay · 08/12/2025 09:36

JudeyJudey · 08/12/2025 07:13

Today’s the day. I can feel it.

The Coca Cola 'Holidays are Coming' Xmas ad is back on TV, and it reminds me of the mood of excited anticipation on this thread😁

ProfessorRedshoeblueshoe · 08/12/2025 09:43

10am today works for me

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