what did you know and when did you know it?

[truthsayers]

Brilliant article here. The tide is definitely turning:

https://www.spiked-online.com/2025/11/11/the-trans-reckoning-has-arrived/

I recall having a debate on here with dittany - probably 10/12 years ago - trying to answer the question “what is a woman” and tying myself in knots, not because I believed TWAW but because it seemed such an absurd question.

I don’t know when I exactly “got it” but by 2016 I’d realised how important that question was and by 2017 I was having tentative conversations with friends and colleagues.

there were Facebook groups that I came to from MN and I recall speaking to PP when she was first “invited for interview”, listening to Lucy Mahmoud talk in Bloomsbury at a Women’s Place (?) and sitting next to Magdalene Burns at a meeting at the Houses of Parliament. I was aligned with everything they were saying.

i think that was all very much pre covid. Timelines are fuzzy.

The problem with transwomen on TV is they're rarely "just there" nowadays and generally seem to be making some kind of political point. (Even if it's just a lazy "let's throw in a trans to prove we're progressive" as I suspect was the case with Riot Women.)

Also I get the impression there are rather more transwomen than transmen on TV for some reason...

Seeing straight women who identified as non binary and men who identified as lesbians speak for lesbians, while actual lesbians started identifying as 'queer' and being afraid of the word 'lesbian' was an eye opener.

Yep, Dittany was very patient with me as well.

whoever said that men identifying as women were running towards sexual objectification, whereas teen girls identifying as boys were running AWAY from sexual objectification, nailed it for me.

Porn has a lot to answer for

I'm ashamed that I used to believe TW had fully transitioned and I suspect that many people still do think that. That's why all these tribunals and press coverage matter so much. At that time, I worked in a captured public sector organisation where no opposing views were presented.

The article isn't really about peaking directly though is it? It's more about the network of professionals who are propping up a fake reality and how and when they realise they're doing it but just carry on. (Although stories of peaking are really interesting for seeing how reality intrudes on the fake version. Pity that recent scraping research chose from the start to see it as myth making. Incredible mental gymnastics.)

Some of these people are genuinely still deluded about this, especially in the psychotherapy world that Stella O"Malley comes from (also my world). It really is like the ground has split leaving people on different sides of a chasm.It's the fanaticism and the willingness of some to persecute others which is shocking.

There needs to be some kind of truth and reconciliation process but we're not there yet.

I am one of those who has never 'believed' partly because I am older/more cynical than some on here. However I grew up reading books by Germaine Greer, Simone de Beauvoir, Ann Oakley, Margaret Mead among others. Interestingly these came from my DF's bookshelf and I don't think my DM ever read them. Whilst I am not sure he would have described himself as a feminist, he was interested in new ideas and I was brought up to believe that my sex was no barrier to anything. I look back now and appreciate that having read books like that in my teens was very influential on the woman I became and my life choices. My DF was an interesting man ❤

I've been reading Sex Matters for a couple of years and was hugely relieved by the Cass Review. And yet even a year ago, in a fairly oblique political chat with a male friend, I found myself saying "I can't get too excited about toilets".

Well, that's changed. I now realise it's not just about toilets, and it's not just about me and my relaxed attitude to privacy when taking a wee, and it's not just about lovely TW like the ones I actually know. The big eye-opener has been the Fife, Leonardo and Darlington cases, in which institutions didn't understand the law or how to apply it, and when challenged, they dumped all over the women who were already disadvantaged. We see the same at the BBC and much of the rest of the media: ignorance, inertia and fear.

I'd worked in London for a long time and trans women were just around in my work mileau. Not many but you know just there and I'd never really thought about it. Then a friend who worked in a large public sector body got handed the trans issue. They public body had been getting a lot of long emails from trans people and they handed it to my friend to deal with because she was a lesbian and fo would understand (I know!)

I remember our initial conversations when after the first few meetings she would be "omg this is a nightmare" and she discussed how TW always dominated the meetings and we agreed that was because they were men. And then after about 9 months things changed and she started to talk how misunderstood and marginalised they were and how they were really women anyway and it was the first time I heard the word TERF. 6 months on and she was telling me susie green was a wonderful woman campaigning for all children to be their authentic selves. This was around 2017/2018.

we stopped being friends soon after because I'd been looking at things alerted initially alerted by glinner on twitter and come to a very different conclusion. I have done legal training and I know definitions are crucial. You can't defend what you cannot define. It seemed obvious to me that TW were men and while that didn't matter on the local quiz team it did matter when it came to prison, sports, refuges etc. I genuinely could not and still can't past that people would deny the biological reality and impact of patriarchy about something so blindingly fucking obvious. men however they present are men

I've been horrified, sad and angry at how little women were and are considered. When I was younger I thought we had equality I was wrong, we've gone back fucking decades. I'm so offended by the idea that a man wearing a dress and lipstick is a women because that's all women are that I barely know where to start

However I work in a totally captured sector. I've done what I can eg to say we need to use the equality act characterics as they are listed and not use pronouns in emails but I'm aware it's not much. The chilling effect is so real. Like so many, I need a job and could only push back so far

what an enormous grade a shit show this has been

Originally not long after the gra was enacted because we had a transwoman who came to our local pub regularly and made us all uncomfortable. Didn't really hit my radar again till about 10 years ago and Anna Lee. I will never see transwomen as women, they are male and that male entitlement shines through in everything do.

I am one of those who has never 'believed' partly because I am older/more cynical than some on here. However I grew up reading books by Germaine Greer, Simone de Beauvoir, Ann Oakley, Margaret Mead among others.

Ditto @FarriersGirl

But I'm probably a fair bit older than most MN posters - and a second wave feminist from the age of around 12 or so (early 1970s).

I remember a drag queen saying to me that not shaving legs & underarms was "naff" back in the late 70s, and thinking that as a man, he really shouldn't be commenting!

I remember teaching Women's Studies back in the late 90s and discussing with my undergrads about why feminism seemed to be in retreat. The one silver lining from the MRA/TRA madness is observing the revival of grass roots feminism. I just wish it weren't so single issue from those who've only recently (ie in the last 10 years or so) come to feminism. There's a huge need for women to read and educate themselves more widely than just opposing gender extremist ideology.

I didn't read that thread and I've not watched Riot Girls, so I'm not sure exactly had been said, however I will admit that I have no patience for trans identified men at all.

These men are a group who claim to be women, but I have yet to come across a single one who will listen and engage in good faith with women. Not a single one. They talk over, bully, insist our rights are theirs to take. When that doesn't work out comes the threats and violence. Go onto any place or community for trans-identified-males and you won't find a single one who will attempt to accurately explain the gender critical argument - and it's not like we aren't very clear about our beliefs, it's just that it doesn't suit them to listen. They are completely devoid of empathy for the very group they claim to be.

And that is all completely aside from the idea that anyone thinks it's okay or acceptable that women is for men to wear at will.

So when I do see a man pretending to be a woman on TV now I have absolutely zero patience for it. Under any circumstance. We don't accept 'trans-racial' or 'trans-disabled' for obvious reasons but we're still supposed to play pretend that men claiming womanhood is acceptable. It is not.

I was full on TWAW until JKR's first essay. There was a section about women in a domestic violence shelter and how they were shaken and terrified of strange males. It's something I hadn't thought about before, and it made me have a weird realisation that even if I'm ok with certain things, other women aren't and it is not my place to consent on their behalf or try to push beliefs onto them.

Not long after that I found this site and read more of JKR's stuff, and now my view is no longer TWAW. I personally don't mind calling someone a she for the sake of politeness but I see a lot of the opinions voiced on here as simply setting boundaries and I fully agree with that.

We are quite similar in age @ParmaVioletTea. I did sciences at Uni and worked in male dominated environments in the first 20 years of my career but I was also aware that feminism became rather side-lined in the 90's. I think there was a cosy assumption in some quarters it was not needed. I agree with you that modern feminism needs a broader base of knowledge and understanding.

Thank you for posting a link to that article @truthsayers.

I'm not sure we'll ever really get justice from all TPTB in terms of those that enabled Stonewall Law and cultural dominance.

In terms of my own story, I started out at 'Be Kind', my own personal exposure to trans people was all very young and vulnerable. But I had 'red lines' in my head - sport, prisons, hospitals, personal care, etc.

And then I heard about Maya Forstater's appeal. It was discovering that the reason she was appealing was because a judge in the UK had declared that reality was not 'worthy of respect in a democratic society'. The phrase echoed round my head and although I was delighted that she won at appeal, the fact that she'd originally lost really shook me.

I was too late to make a financial contribution to her but I googled and came across Alison Bailey. And then from there I came across Kathleen Stock's work and later Mumsnet. I'm now fully committed, well-educated, on the right side of history, GC.

This is the book that finally erased for me the HSTS / AGP distinction.
It's a remarkable close study, Krasnostein tries to be a proper ally throughout but she's too good a writer, the truth will out.

For myself I'm ashamed to say I was aware of attempts by trans identified male people to colonise women's separatist spaces decades ago but it never occurred to me that we could fight it. I just felt, oh well, we have to do it in secret, like it's something shameful to want a women only sweat lodge / CSA survivor group / sing along / disco (/ whatever, just why can't we have something nice for ourselves?!). I just love what the brave women of the GC movement have done, refusing to be shamed or silenced - shifting the shame to where it belongs, on those who violate our boundaries, who take advantage of vulnerable children for ideological ends. Anyway, well done those women.

I've never believed it. I was a five year old that got trapped in the ladies loos with a masturbating bloke dressed up like a sexy woman. It was the 70's and underwear stealing was a common fear. People knew what these men were then.
I didn't realise children were being involved and "transed" till 2017.
I'm still horrified anyone is falling for it. We are living in a dystopian nightmare.

I didn't believe it. I did believe that men who wanted to be women were confused and vulnerable and probably safe. This was based on an experience of knowing one trans trans woman and feeling some sympathy for him.
Over time what I saw was that nice sweet person becoming more and more frustrated and angry and self absorbed. Transitioning hasn't brought him the life or the peace he had hoped for.

I later on, noticed young people suddenly declaring trans identities which didn't ring true and was really worrying. Especially for the way they were instantly affirmed and it felt like any parents who dared to disagree were gaslighted on a massive scale and there was nowhere to turn to get their child emotional support that wouldn't push them further down the path to medical interventions.

When Germain Greer said "I don't care", I thought it was harsh but I was curious. It set me down a path of dipping my toe in the water now and again and reading a bit about it here and there. Obviously, now I feel she was absolutely justified.

Munroe Bergdorf on X telling women that they shouldn't wear pink 'Pussy' hats at the Pink Pussy March in 2018. Because not all women have vaginas.

Coupled with Pink News also suggesting that wearing the hats was 'exclusionary'.

Women’s March Was ‘Made Unsafe’

This was my awakening. This is when I started paying attention.

I was livid. Prior to this I'd been pretty much live and let live. That was before I became aware of how this was affecting women's rights and protections.

The barometer for the tide actually turning will be when articles like these are available on publications that aren't right wing. That day can't come soon enough for me, as a leftie.

the Guardian is getting better. And i’d question whether we actually have a right and left wing in this country, judging by the current labour party.
(and Greens are left wing, but utterly diabolical by most standards.)

Fair point. Unfortunately.

It grieves me that the only publications willing to promote gender critical articles are most assuredly right of centre, including Murdoch's Times.

I'm not sure non-partisan journalism ever really existed in this country.

I've never believed in gender identity cult.

I was of the view that nothing could change your sex, but that surgery, drugs and lifestyle changes might alleviate someone's symptoms of distress.

Over the years I've become less tolerant to accommodating trans women in the female sphere, as it's become more obvious the impact that has on the privacy, dignity and rights of women.

So my fundamental beliefs haven't changed but my response has hardened.

I had a wobble on this recently. When a trans woman I vaguely know has become very ill in hospital, realising how distressing it would be for that person to potentially die in a male ward. Then I remembered that having that person, as nice as they are, on the female ward, would subject numerous women to feeling uncomfortable on the ward when they're just as ill, and that one person's comfort does not override everyone else's.