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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Your Corbyn/Sultana Party - Discussion thread - Part 2

1000 replies

fromorbit · 08/11/2025 09:57

The YP starting conference is in the ACC in Liverpool between 29-30 November so only three weeks off. With competing factions involving Islamic conservatives, every variety of Marxist/Communist, former Labour members, trade union activists, entryists from SWP and SPEW, splitters from the Scottish Greens, trans activists and actual left wing feminists [not the nice kind] it is difficult to underplay how much controversy there is likely to be. So we will need a second thread in advance.

Thus far following the internal drama of the UKs newest left party has taken a whole thread. It has been a wild ride and the party still does not have a name.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5394557-your-corbynsultana-party-discussion-thread

Your Corbyn/Sultana Party - Discussion thread | Mumsnet

The new left party is going to have significant implications for gender and sex discussions on the left in the UK and in wider political debate as wel...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5394557-your-corbynsultana-party-discussion-thread

OP posts:
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73
Carla786 · 16/01/2026 17:40

BTW, I'm shocked AND confused to as to why Ukraine is supporting the junta. Very weird ..

Carla786 · 16/01/2026 17:54

Carla786 · 16/01/2026 17:40

BTW, I'm shocked AND confused to as to why Ukraine is supporting the junta. Very weird ..

Aha, it seems that Ukraine is essentially treating the Sudan war as a proxy war for fighting Russia's Wagner mercenaries (who back the RSF). Whether that's actually helpful to Ukraine (let alone Sudan) is I suppose another matter....

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/06/ukrainian-special-forces-sudan-russian-mercenaries-wagner

https://theconversation.com/ukrainian-special-operations-abroad-are-part-of-its-broader-war-effort-against-russia-236673

In Ukraine's defence, it seems the Russia-RSF alliance is contributing gold, diamonds & other resources to Russia's war effort, as well as enhancing the prestige of the Wagner group

This angle of the conflict hasn't been covered specifically much, I'd like to know more. A very tangled situation. The best that can be hoped for at the moment for Sudan is probably that as many civilians can escape as possible.

Ukrainian special forces ‘in Sudan operating against Russian mercenaries’

Video reportedly from Ukrainian intelligence shows captured Russian saying he is from Wagner group

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/06/ukrainian-special-forces-sudan-russian-mercenaries-wagner

SionnachRuadh · 17/01/2026 00:07

A bit less vigorous than the chants of "Keir Starmer is a wanker" at the darts.

1984Now · 17/01/2026 00:15

SionnachRuadh · 17/01/2026 00:07

A bit less vigorous than the chants of "Keir Starmer is a wanker" at the darts.

Boomers4Corbyn must be the most underpowered political demographic in the UK.
Bemoaning the fact it's not 2017 anymore when they were still (just) Gen X. Wondering where that intervening 9 years has gone, so quickly, just like their thinning hair.

RainbowBagels · 17/01/2026 07:30

Carla786 · 16/01/2026 17:54

Aha, it seems that Ukraine is essentially treating the Sudan war as a proxy war for fighting Russia's Wagner mercenaries (who back the RSF). Whether that's actually helpful to Ukraine (let alone Sudan) is I suppose another matter....

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/06/ukrainian-special-forces-sudan-russian-mercenaries-wagner

https://theconversation.com/ukrainian-special-operations-abroad-are-part-of-its-broader-war-effort-against-russia-236673

In Ukraine's defence, it seems the Russia-RSF alliance is contributing gold, diamonds & other resources to Russia's war effort, as well as enhancing the prestige of the Wagner group

This angle of the conflict hasn't been covered specifically much, I'd like to know more. A very tangled situation. The best that can be hoped for at the moment for Sudan is probably that as many civilians can escape as possible.

Bloody hell what an absolute global shit show this all is!

SionnachRuadh · 17/01/2026 10:31

RainbowBagels · 17/01/2026 07:30

Bloody hell what an absolute global shit show this all is!

I'll raise you the separatist riots in New Caledonia, where France has accused Azerbaijan (!) of stirring things up in the French Pacific territory, in retaliation for France's criticism of Azerbaijan's ethnic cleansing of Nagorno-Karabakh Armenians.

The amazing thing is, France might not be wrong about that. New Caledonian separatists have indeed been hosted in Baku.

I have no idea what Corbyn thinks about this, but I'd love to ask him.

RainbowBagels · 17/01/2026 11:21

My DS is obsessed with global politics ( he's planning on doing International Relations at University). He's always saying 'What do you think of some blah blah in Myanmar?' which I've never heard of. I tried besting him with that one but he already knew about it!

SionnachRuadh · 17/01/2026 12:21

East European mercenaries pissing about in Africa trying to take kicks at the Russians is very much on brand for the region. If it turns out Poland is deeply involved in some African war I would not be astonished.

It reminds me a bit of how lots of ex-Nazis turned up in Cairo and Damascus in the 1950s looking to have another go at the Jews. Some of them even converted to Islam.

Lalgarh · 17/01/2026 15:01

The Corbyn faction competing for control of the CEC have now launched their website. They are called The Many.

https://www.themany.uk/

Tellingly they lump Starmer in with Farage as the main enemies of the left in their promo film. Deep red old Labour stylings too.

Manifesto based on 3pillars (deliberate choice I guess, cf 5 Pillars of faith?)

We want to build a mass left party, founded on three key pillars:

  1. Building our base – by organising in working class communities and getting branches going.
  2. Reuniting our multiracial coalition – by focusing on what unites us, not what drives us apart, mending trust in the left among Muslim communities.
  3. Winning people to our politics – by campaigning relentlessly on the issues that matter most to them, from the cost-of-living to opposition to racism and war.

Also includes the remaining Gaza Independent MPs, including Ayoub Khan who has been seething on news reports about the witch hunt against the west Midlands police chief who's just been allowed to retire, for the 2nd time since 2024 over fibbing about using AI to find evidence on that maccabi match

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk-politics/2026/01/jeremy-corbyn-wants-to-get-your-party-back-on-track

For ref this is the Grassroots Left one again for reference/ counterpoint

https://www.grassrootsleft.org/

By the way I spotted a lone Palestine flag at the coverage of the protest against the Chinese embassy just now. Kemi Badenoch just addressed the crowd and they seemed fairly receptive to them. No sign of any SWP placards.

The Many

Join the campaign for a people's party. Find out more and vote for The Many candidates running in Your Party's CEC Elections

https://www.themany.uk

SionnachRuadh · 17/01/2026 15:42

I wouldn't expect anyone from the left activist world to turn up at the China protest.

Likewise, I didn't spot any at the protest last week at the Iranian embassy. It was basically Iranian exiles, plus Nigel Farage who gave a well received speech.

Corbyn's candidates confirm an important point. I forget who said this, but basically it was a question of where legitimacy comes from - for Corbyn it comes from the millions who voted for his version of Labour, for Sultana it comes from the activists. So he gravitates towards established personalities - councillors, union officials, people grounded in communities - while she gravitates naturally towards the Trot sectarians.

timesublimelysilencesthewhys · 17/01/2026 15:47

The Corbyn fraction is fighting an imaginary fight, or at least one thats moment has gone. Certainly outside of London.

Cost of living is a huge issue, but culture is massive too. Focusing on 'mending trust in the left among Muslim communities' is looking in the wrong direction, unless they have giving up on the working class.

Corbyn recieved votes when he was in Labour, but outside of the Labour brand?

RainbowBagels · 17/01/2026 15:56

Is ' the many' yet another party? Or have they ignored the vote for a party name at conference? Why only building trust amongst Muslim communities? There are other ethnic minorities out there!

Carla786 · 17/01/2026 20:14

SionnachRuadh · 17/01/2026 12:21

East European mercenaries pissing about in Africa trying to take kicks at the Russians is very much on brand for the region. If it turns out Poland is deeply involved in some African war I would not be astonished.

It reminds me a bit of how lots of ex-Nazis turned up in Cairo and Damascus in the 1950s looking to have another go at the Jews. Some of them even converted to Islam.

That's a good point about Nazis in Cairo etc. Nasser & etc other dubious characters share a lot of the responsibility for the ugly direction Arab liberation movements took. That history plays directly into issues like Gaza today, I expect.

East European countries I can understand trying to ward off Putin in various places. Hopefully they won't entrench equally bad leaders in the process though in Sudan & others.

ThreeDeafMice · 17/01/2026 20:51

Carla786 · 17/01/2026 20:14

That's a good point about Nazis in Cairo etc. Nasser & etc other dubious characters share a lot of the responsibility for the ugly direction Arab liberation movements took. That history plays directly into issues like Gaza today, I expect.

East European countries I can understand trying to ward off Putin in various places. Hopefully they won't entrench equally bad leaders in the process though in Sudan & others.

I think you're missing the historical context, one example of which is the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem being an avowed Nazi who was calling on Hitler to assist with his problem of too many Jews in Palestine. You see Nazis influencing Arab nationalism. I see Nazis-like echoes embedded like ripples in rock through Arab nationalism, since before Nazis were nazis.

https://time.com/4084301/hitler-grand-mufi-1941/

The fascist elements of Arab nationalism (none of which I detect as having seriously abated) are an awkwardness that many people making judgments about the middle east today seem to have no trouble ignoring.

Your Corbyn/Sultana Party - Discussion thread - Part 2
Carla786 · 17/01/2026 23:57

ThreeDeafMice · 17/01/2026 20:51

I think you're missing the historical context, one example of which is the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem being an avowed Nazi who was calling on Hitler to assist with his problem of too many Jews in Palestine. You see Nazis influencing Arab nationalism. I see Nazis-like echoes embedded like ripples in rock through Arab nationalism, since before Nazis were nazis.

https://time.com/4084301/hitler-grand-mufi-1941/

The fascist elements of Arab nationalism (none of which I detect as having seriously abated) are an awkwardness that many people making judgments about the middle east today seem to have no trouble ignoring.

I'm not missing that context : I was aware of Arab leaders having Nazi ties during WW2. When you say 'before Nazis were Nazis' : do you mean in the 1910s and early 1920s there was already such Nazi-like aggression towards Jews in those areas?

ThreeDeafMice · 18/01/2026 00:05

Carla786 · 17/01/2026 23:57

I'm not missing that context : I was aware of Arab leaders having Nazi ties during WW2. When you say 'before Nazis were Nazis' : do you mean in the 1910s and early 1920s there was already such Nazi-like aggression towards Jews in those areas?

The Hebron massacre was in 1929.

You wrote: That's a good point about Nazis in Cairo etc. Nasser & etc other dubious characters share a lot of the responsibility for the ugly direction Arab liberation movements took.

What I mean is that to suggest that antisemitism was a European import to the middle east, by hand of travellling Nazis after WW2, is not correct.

I don't think the ugly direction of Arab liberation movements can be credited to Nazis in Cairo or Damascus.

Carla786 · 18/01/2026 00:19

ThreeDeafMice · 18/01/2026 00:05

The Hebron massacre was in 1929.

You wrote: That's a good point about Nazis in Cairo etc. Nasser & etc other dubious characters share a lot of the responsibility for the ugly direction Arab liberation movements took.

What I mean is that to suggest that antisemitism was a European import to the middle east, by hand of travellling Nazis after WW2, is not correct.

I don't think the ugly direction of Arab liberation movements can be credited to Nazis in Cairo or Damascus.

Edited

Thank you- I'm sorry, I had wrongly thought the Hebron massacre was later.

It seems like the Nazi propaganda elements were imported into what was already in the 1920s a caludron of increasingly violent religious/ethnic sentiment stirred up by malign demagogues like the Mufti.

As this article that came up about Hebron says :' It was the mufti who propagated the idea that the Jews were planning to conquer the Temple Mount in Jerusalem and destroy the Al-Aqsa Mosque. He drew on religious rhetoric to urge violent resistance, infusing the emerging Palestinian Arab national movement with a radical Islamic aspect. '

I know anti Semitism was not a Nazi import to the Arab world, as the Mufti and others demonstrate. I do think the leaders who collaborated with Nazis to stir up anti Semitic propaganda among successive generations did make the situation a lot worse than it had been previously though- but clearly there was deeply-rooted rot long before that.

Bernard Lewis' book What Went Wrong? pointed out that Arab & Muslim violent fundamentalist anti Semitism wasn't a historical foregone conclusion. Jews were better treated by the Nasrid empire and the Ottoman Empire (before its decline) than in many European countries pre-Emancipation. A lot of the Mizrahi Jews who were violently forced to leave in fear of their lives in 20th century ME had lived embedded in countries like Iraq for centuries.

I think the reason it changed is probably deeply bound up with the rise of fundamentalist Wahhabism and Salafism in the 18th century.

HildegardP · 18/01/2026 01:01

Lalgarh · 16/01/2026 22:28

Playing to his voter base, Corbyn launches at Bradford banqueting hall

https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/25770039.chants-jeremy-corbyn-party-bradford-launch/?ref=cprfa

Rather half hearted chanting of Oh Jeremy Corbyn from the clip there

Is that a flat cap worn backwards? Full marks for provoking many layers of mirth if so.

ThreeDeafMice · 18/01/2026 01:05

Carla786 · 18/01/2026 00:19

Thank you- I'm sorry, I had wrongly thought the Hebron massacre was later.

It seems like the Nazi propaganda elements were imported into what was already in the 1920s a caludron of increasingly violent religious/ethnic sentiment stirred up by malign demagogues like the Mufti.

As this article that came up about Hebron says :' It was the mufti who propagated the idea that the Jews were planning to conquer the Temple Mount in Jerusalem and destroy the Al-Aqsa Mosque. He drew on religious rhetoric to urge violent resistance, infusing the emerging Palestinian Arab national movement with a radical Islamic aspect. '

I know anti Semitism was not a Nazi import to the Arab world, as the Mufti and others demonstrate. I do think the leaders who collaborated with Nazis to stir up anti Semitic propaganda among successive generations did make the situation a lot worse than it had been previously though- but clearly there was deeply-rooted rot long before that.

Bernard Lewis' book What Went Wrong? pointed out that Arab & Muslim violent fundamentalist anti Semitism wasn't a historical foregone conclusion. Jews were better treated by the Nasrid empire and the Ottoman Empire (before its decline) than in many European countries pre-Emancipation. A lot of the Mizrahi Jews who were violently forced to leave in fear of their lives in 20th century ME had lived embedded in countries like Iraq for centuries.

I think the reason it changed is probably deeply bound up with the rise of fundamentalist Wahhabism and Salafism in the 18th century.

Edited

I think the reason it changed is probably deeply bound up with the rise of fundamentalist Wahhabism and Salafism in the 18th century.

I think the rise of antisemitism accompanies the emancipation of Jewry in whatever society it has lived. I think that most societies across the world in which Jews have found themselves living (and some where no Jews have ever lived) have inbred anti-semitism which is latent, as long as Jews are poor and subservient. This certainly apples to Jews in Arab countries before 1948 and Jews in Germany until approximately the middle of the 18th century.

Antisemitism becomes widespread and open at about the same time as Jews begin to demand and receive treatment equal to the societal majority, or, even worse, form their own ruling class.

German antisemitism became widespread, popular and acceptable shortly after the widespread emancipation of German Jews at the turn of the 20th century. Arab antisemitism flourished immediately after the establishment of the State of Israel. Up until that point most Arab nations tolerated, to some extent, a Jewish minority, of greater or lesser extent. As soon as Jews as a class demonstrated to Arab society they had the skills to win wars, form governments and form a ruling class - that those skills and positions were not by breeding or inclination forever beyond Jewish reach - anti-semitism boiled over in a significant way, leading to the expulsion of all Jews from those nations.

I see echoes of this the world over: Jews are ok as long as they don't win anything, rule anything, own anything, or manage anything. Quiet, invisible Jews who know their place are acceptable, just about. The others, the bad Jews, the ones who get ideas above their station as Jews, have to be knocked down.

The real crime of Israel, in the eyes of the left, is to be Jews who win.

HildegardP · 18/01/2026 01:08

RainbowBagels · 17/01/2026 07:30

Bloody hell what an absolute global shit show this all is!

See also: Mali. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/crmx7x3yjyko
(Gold.)

persephonia · 18/01/2026 01:16

Carla786 · 18/01/2026 00:19

Thank you- I'm sorry, I had wrongly thought the Hebron massacre was later.

It seems like the Nazi propaganda elements were imported into what was already in the 1920s a caludron of increasingly violent religious/ethnic sentiment stirred up by malign demagogues like the Mufti.

As this article that came up about Hebron says :' It was the mufti who propagated the idea that the Jews were planning to conquer the Temple Mount in Jerusalem and destroy the Al-Aqsa Mosque. He drew on religious rhetoric to urge violent resistance, infusing the emerging Palestinian Arab national movement with a radical Islamic aspect. '

I know anti Semitism was not a Nazi import to the Arab world, as the Mufti and others demonstrate. I do think the leaders who collaborated with Nazis to stir up anti Semitic propaganda among successive generations did make the situation a lot worse than it had been previously though- but clearly there was deeply-rooted rot long before that.

Bernard Lewis' book What Went Wrong? pointed out that Arab & Muslim violent fundamentalist anti Semitism wasn't a historical foregone conclusion. Jews were better treated by the Nasrid empire and the Ottoman Empire (before its decline) than in many European countries pre-Emancipation. A lot of the Mizrahi Jews who were violently forced to leave in fear of their lives in 20th century ME had lived embedded in countries like Iraq for centuries.

I think the reason it changed is probably deeply bound up with the rise of fundamentalist Wahhabism and Salafism in the 18th century.

Edited

I think also all nationalist movements can become far right quite easily. Which is a bit frustrating when some on the far left try to differentiate with "X group aren't nationalist, they are anti-colonialist so they can't be bad". And yes, when you are actively fighting an enemy who is attacking your country or trying to break free of an occupation you need patriotism/nationalism etc. But it's a delicate balancing act. And after independence can turn nasty. E.g..I heard Idi Amin defended because he was "anti-colonialist". Yes but all the of people he massacred weren't responsible for the British Empire. Anti-colonialists can absolutely turn into far right nationalists. Just because someone's the victim in one context doesn't mean they can't be the perpetrator in another.
The Taliban or ISIS are far right in exactly the same way someone trying to set up a Christian theocracy would be far right. You can have far right Buddhist extremists. But I think there's an inability from some in the left to see that.

persephonia · 18/01/2026 01:43

Arab nationalism for example came about as part of a long struggle against occupation. The British specifically encouraged them to rise up against the Ottoman empire. You can't blame them for that, the Ottoman empire was oppressive and understandably self determination was all the rage. They didn't get what was promised to them, maybe that was impossible but we probably shouldn't have made those promises.
Similarly after WW2 you had deeply traumatised populations across Europe, and a lot of violence/ethnic cleansings/mini wars that aren't really talked about any more. I think Europe was very very lucky actually that it did come out the other side more or less. It wasn't a forgone conclusion. And in Palestine you had incredibly traumatised Jewish refugees some of whom had lost their whole families. And the differences of opinion between Haganah and Irgun about what resistance should look like...

Carla786 · 18/01/2026 02:04

persephonia · 18/01/2026 01:43

Arab nationalism for example came about as part of a long struggle against occupation. The British specifically encouraged them to rise up against the Ottoman empire. You can't blame them for that, the Ottoman empire was oppressive and understandably self determination was all the rage. They didn't get what was promised to them, maybe that was impossible but we probably shouldn't have made those promises.
Similarly after WW2 you had deeply traumatised populations across Europe, and a lot of violence/ethnic cleansings/mini wars that aren't really talked about any more. I think Europe was very very lucky actually that it did come out the other side more or less. It wasn't a forgone conclusion. And in Palestine you had incredibly traumatised Jewish refugees some of whom had lost their whole families. And the differences of opinion between Haganah and Irgun about what resistance should look like...

I agree strongly with this.

Re this bit : Similarly after WW2 you had deeply traumatised populations across Europe, and a lot of violence/ethnic cleansings/mini wars that aren't really talked about any more.- can you give any particular examples?

I read an interesting book recently called The Vanquished about the ongoing fighting and ethnic violence after the official 'end' of WW1. I'd be interested to see the parallels...

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