"Darlington Nurses" vs County Durham and Darlington NHS Trust Tribunal Thread 5

[ThreeWordHarpy]

Thread 1, 7-Oct to 23-Oct; pre-hearing discussion, KD (day 1 of evidence) and BH (day 2).
Thread 2, 23-Oct to 28-Oct; BH (day 2), CH, JP, MG (day 3&4), TH, SS, ST, LL (day 4), JS, AT (day 5)
Thread 3, 28-Oct to 29-Oct, AT (day 5&6), TA (day 6&7)
Thread 4, 29-Oct to 31-Oct, TA, AM (day 7) JB (day 8)

Five nurses working at Darlington Memorial Hospital have filed a legal case suing their employer, an NHS trust, for sexual harassment and sex discrimination. The nurses object to sharing the women’s changing facilities with a male colleague, Rose, who identifies as female. The hearing started on October 20th, with evidence starting on October 22nd and is scheduled to last 3 weeks. To view the hearing online requests for access had to be made by October 17th. The hearing is being live tweeted by Tribunal Tweets who have background to this case on their substack. An alternative to X is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

The Judge made clear at the start of the public hearing on Day 1 that only TT or press have permission to tweet. If online observers see/hear something in the court that isn’t reported by TT, we don’t mention it until the next time there’s a break. This is a very cautious approach to avoid any accusations of “live reporting” on MN. Commentary on the content of TT tweets is fine as soon as they’re posted on X.

Key people:
C/Ns - Claimants, the Darlington nurses
R/T/Trust - Respondent, County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust
J/EJ – Judge/Employment Judge Seamus Sweeney
NF - Niazi Fetto KC, barrister for claimants
SC - Simon Cheetham, KC, barrister for respondents
RH - Rose Henderson, trans identifying nurse
CG – Clare Gregory, ward manager
SW - Sue Williams, NHS Trust HR
KD – Karen Danson, first claimant to give evidence.
BH – Bethany Hutchison, claimant
AH – Alistair Hutchison, husband of Bethany
CH – Carly Hoy, claimant
JP – Jane Peveller, claimant
MG – Mary Anne (aka Annice) Grundy, claimant
TH – Tracy Hooper, claimant
SS – Siobhan Sinclair, witness for the claimants, retired from Trust
ST – Sharron Trevarrow, witness for the claimants, retired from Trust, former housekeeper and wellbeing officer
LL – Lisa Lockey, claimant
JP – Professor Jo Phoenix, expert witness
JS – Jane Shields, witness for the claimants
AT - Andrew Thacker, NHS trust Head of HR
TA – Tracy Atkinson, NHS trust HR.
AM – Andrew Moore, NHS Head of Workforce Experience
JB – Jillian Bailey, NHS Workforce Experience Manager

I cant believe that not one manager took Rose aside to discuss the complaint, notwithstanding he should not been allowed to change in the female CR, but particularly the accusation of inappropriate behaviour by him. That should have been immediately addressed by managers and was negligent of them. Cowards.

Exactly. It wasn’t because it was so super duper sensitive. It’s because they were too chicken to have a quiet word with him about it.

Upset 1 (behaving dreadfully) man? 🙅‍♀️

Upset 26 women? 💁🏻‍♀️

I don't know if this is relevant, but all of the nurses in the Times article are over the age of 40, they are very experienced nurses, who have devoted their lives to looking after people. How many of the admin people giving evidence against them are under the age of 40? I only ask this, because many of the women who are very "pro trans", or of the "be kind" mentality are younger women, who may or may not be very dismissive of older, more experienced people. When I last worked in my late fifties, I found a lot of blatant ageism in the workplace, from people in their 20's/30's.

@oldtiredcyclist the two senior men were well into 50s. Senior HR was 40s. Didn’t seem captured just thick. And more junior wellbeing person but still mid 30s. Probably more of a believer.

On balance I wouldn’t say it’s an age thing.

At least no one was having to listen to Rose cry or escort him to his car for his safety (that we know of yet). But still time for simpering laydee performances.

Sad times. In his ‘raspberry scrubs’.

Did anyone pick up what the resolution was for the BBC News reporter requesting witness statements?

As an observer I’d like e-access to the bundle - just wanted to know how that went before I request same.

There's an interesting story in the Telegraph today. Wes Streeting is saying that improvements recently in the NHS are down to getting rid of middle management and putting that money into front line staff.
Just saying .....

If RH is indeed giving evidence, what date is that so I can make a note?
I know Prof Pheonix is Monday

I’m still unsure if ‘Rose’ will give evidence or not, as I seem to recall the tribunal was scheduled as it is because RH was unavailable in September (due to getting married).
If he isn’t giving evidence why schedule the tribunal around his availability?
Am I misremembering?

Beth Hutchison, who is sort of the spokesperson for the nurses, is 36.

I think that nurses of any age would have felt uncomfortable changing with Rose. I think maybe the 8 in court are mostly over 40 but I reckon the 26 complaint signatures would be all ages

Age can often be a factor but not here. This is about a captured institution. TW looks to be late 50s and would seem to be a late convert.

There is a comment by Matthew Syed in the Times today about how nothing can get done in the UK anymore, how "process has replaced progress", there is no mention at all of this trial, but I was strongly reminded of all the HR people in this trial when I read it, despite that they don't seem to even follow their own processes but at least they seem to like the idea of "process" over outcomes.

You are right. It was scheduled around his availability. SC told the judge at a directions hearing he was a very important witness. So there has either been a change of mind or they are deliberately keeping quiet in public sessions about the date he will appear.

Most of the women of all ages who use the female changing rooms at my leisure centre are extremely modest, hardly ever exposing their bodies even to other women (the exception being me and a couple of other old biddies, plus a couple of younger women who don’t seem to be bothered.) But I can guarantee that none of us would be comfortable with a man in there.
(I did encounter a TW in there a few years ago and removed myself until he left, plus I complained. I haven’t encountered him in there since. I noticed he left his clothes and belongings strewn about very untidily, which almost annoyed me more than his actual presence.)

it seems the problem with this case and with many of the others is that there is a process - but no one followed it because they didn't want to upset the man involved.

ive seen it a lot at work with issues around staff management. Everyone is terrified of confronting poor performance for fear they will go off sick/retaliate with a grievance/claim discrimination. We seem to have created a work culture in certain sectors where it's the people who behave the most appallingly who get away with it because everyone knows they are the ppl who will kick off when confronted.

a good process should lead to a good outcome but if no one follows the process then what's the point?

I bet TW has an idea if RH is giving evidence because she'll have done the theatre rotas for this week.

It left me wondering if he wasn't quite as lovely as everyone says. I'm always suspicious with too much praise because it can mean people know where the bodies are buried!

It’s a knee-jerk phrase.
”Oh, <insert name/pronoun> is lovely” = “I don’t know them/they haven’t inconvenienced me/I’m staying well out of this.”

No one wanted to tell Rose he couldn't change in there because it would mean saying to his face that he's a man. NHS policy and culture is affirmation - if he says he's a woman then he is. Plus who wants to tell an obviously male delusional man he's not a woman & be on the receiving end of the reaction? They were afraid of him and placated him because he's man

I read this article a little while ago and made exactly the same connection with the Darlington Nurses case.

Not only that, but policy says that if someone had said he couldn’t be there because he was a man, they not he, would have been punished - misgendering, preventing a trans person from using the accommodation of their choice, etc, are all seen in policy as bigoted and transphobic and policy warns that action will be taken against any staff member who does not fully affirm in every way.

If the Darlington and Fife cases are anything to go by, people are getting paid good salaries with no expectation that they will have any particular expertise or take any responsibility. The 'process' begins and ends with recruitment.

Yet somehow I think that if a woman had decided one day to take up residence in the men's changing room, (maybe because she identified with higher salaries) somebody would have found a way to have a word.