"Darlington Nurses" vs County Durham and Darlington NHS Trust Tribunal Thread 3

[AuthorisedCat]

Link to Thread 1, 7-Oct to 23-Oct; pre-hearing discussion, evidence from KD (Day 1) and BH (Day 2).

Link to Thread 2
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5432103-darlington-nurses-vs-county-durham-and-darlington-nhs-trust-tribunal-thread-2

Five nurses working at Darlington Memorial Hospital have filed a legal case suing their employer, an NHS trust, for sexual harassment and sex discrimination. The nurses object to sharing the women’s changing facilities with a male colleague, Rose, who identifies as female. The NHS trust’s HR department dismissed the nurses’ concerns, stating they should “broaden their mindset” and “be educated”. More details can be found at Sex Matters and at Christian Concern who are supporting the nurses via the CLC.
The hearing started on October 20th, with evidence starting on October 22nd and is scheduled to last 3 weeks. To view the hearing online, requests for access had to be made by October 17th. The hearing is being live tweeted by Tribunal Tweets who have background to this case on their substack. An alternative to X is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets
The Judge made clear at the start of the public hearing on Day 1 that only TT or press have permission to tweet. If online observers see/hear something in the court that isn’t reported by TT, we don’t mention it until the next time there’s a break. This is a very cautious approach to avoid any accusations of “live reporting” on MN. Commentary on the content of TT tweets is fine as soon as they’re posted on X.
Key people:
C/Ns - Claimants, the Darlington nurses
R/T/Trust - Respondent, County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust
J/EJ – Judge/Employment Judge
NF - Niazi Fetto KC, barrister for claimants
SC - Simon Cheetham, KC, barrister for respondents
RH - Rose Henderson, trans identifying nurse
CG – Clare Gregory, ward manager
KD – Karen Danson, first claimant to give evidence.
BH – Bethany Hutchison, second claimant to give evidence
AH – Alistair Hutchison, husband of Bethany
Other abbreviations:
WFTCHTJ – Waiting For The Conference Host To Join
ET - Employment Tribunal
DMH/H – Hospital, Darlington Memorial Hospital
CR/CF - changing room or facilities
IX - internal investigation
XX – cross examination

And add “that’s not my department” in relation to H & S regulations

Good. Pathetic specimen. Someone asked upthread if this case had as good a chance of success as SP. IANAL, but I thought this case was much more of a slam-dunk than SP. It seems pretty open and shut, although I admit I haven't followed this so closely. Am I wrong to be so optimistic?

Pesky risk assessments and equality impact assessments. I did a FOI asking for them for the DfE secondary school toilet designs and the DfE said they couldn’t give me them as they didn’t hold them. They never told me who did either. They did say the designs were for privacy. Which I knew as privacy was mentioned multiple times in the toilet section of the design docs. I wanted details on safety, which was not. They directed me to 1974 legislation that schools should also follow when thinking about toilet designs!(?)

It’s taken me a while to catch up and have only had sporadic time to observe but this afternoon was a doozy. It was absolutely extraordinary how this man not only knew so little about the department he headed up but how readily he admitted he knew so little. Almost like it didn’t really matter.

I don’t think it ever crossed his mind how women feel about this stuff, and even if that thought HAD crossed his mind it would not have had a long journey.

Yup. Those gentle Norn Irish tones 'I don't expect you to know, but you have the chance to impress me if you do, ...' were a velvet glove wielding a flick knife.

Can anyone more attuned to these things tell me if it's a Belfast accent? I think it is but may be wrong.

Just thinking about the funds required to sort out a proper changing room (£9200?) compared to what this Tribunal is now costing them.

Very true, but £0 is what it could have cost just to say to RH: "Use the men's changing facilities."
He is an intact male reportedly sporting stubble. He doesn't even try to dress like a woman. How would he stand out in the men's changing room? What issues would there be?

The Telegraph:

I'm not disagreeing that they should have just said 'no' to the bloke.

Makes a change from “women are just small men” I suppose…!

So the NHS Trust pays this duck egg north of £100,000 per year and, in return, he does.,.......

he does...n't have any involvement.

I think the judge will have probably both represented and cross examined plenty of men like AT in his time as a barrister, and seen yet more give evidence in front of him. He knows what’s what.

Not quite Belfast - maybe down country - Fermanagh way maybe.

He a cute one - he knows rightly who is taking the mick - and has ATs cards marked.

There was a lovely piece of intervention from him - Niazi Fetto had said something along the lines of - so your policy says all women have to be removed for one trans identifying male -

NF - the policy prioritises the right of male employees to access over the use by females when changing
AT - that's your interpretation of a very brief line
J - brief you say
AT - yes one sentence in policy.
J - reading that one sentence, what other interpretation is there? Says use somewhere else, brief of not?
AT - yes

Tribunal Tweets are incredible and I don’t know how they keep up with the work - but seeing it in person add a different nuance.

This angry man who was caught out not doing his job and not taking any responsibility - was being so dismissive to Fetto and the Judge just reined him in back to the evidence.

For anyone who wants a picture of the lovely Seamus

https://www.parklaneplowden.co.uk/seamus-sweeney-and-kirti-jeram-appointed-as-employment-judges/

Catching up on the thread and what a day it’s been!

I audited this Trust and re single sex care, I think this from a FOI related to the chaperone policy addresses the relevant issue:

"Do you allow biological men or a man who identifies as transgender to act as
a chaperone to Women undergoing intimate examinations?
The Trust does not discriminate between genders in offering care to patients but staff do avail of the chaperoning policy attached. This is consistent with the Human Rights Act (1998) and Sex Discrimination Act (1975)."

P7 of the referenced Chaperone Policy (attached) states:
"Most patients will not take up the offer of a chaperone, especially where a relationship of trust has been built up or where the examiner is the same gender as them."

This is where we need The Fifer: "If ye ken, ken, ken?"

https://www.judiciary.uk/appointments-and-retirements/appointment-of-a-salaried-employment-judge-of-the-employment-tribunals-england-and-wales-sweeney/

EJ Sweeney is on the cusp of his 60th year

On here lovely wims get stressed about the potential outcome

The defence is a laugh a minuet

On day one of the defence evidence has gone to shit.

We can look forward to days and days of the handmaidens serving the superior men’s, and maybe a few who kick back. Cry and wail to us and in private as to their mistake.

"That's not my department. Its policies are too sensible"

"That's not my department. Its female changing rooms are devoid of men"

THAT'S my department! Its noticeboard is covered in unicorns and rainbows and glittery shit!"

If I followed everything correctly, today we had it confirmed that Tyler was open on wanting to impregnate his partner and that the head of HR has his head inserted somewhere the sun doesn't shine.

It's all fine though as Tyler is a vulnerable person who needs access to women's spaces and HR bloke wants a high wage but doesn't need to know anything.
It's just a man's world!

Brilliant @SqueakyDinosaur Just about caught up, thanks to you all!

J - I’d be impressed if you could.

ouch!

Oh, I know!

Well, that took a while to catch up. The general perception of many of us who work in the NHS is that HR could not run a piss up in a brewery. This certainly doesn't change my mind!