"Darlington Nurses" vs County Durham and Darlington NHS Trust Tribunal Thread 3

[AuthorisedCat]

Link to Thread 1, 7-Oct to 23-Oct; pre-hearing discussion, evidence from KD (Day 1) and BH (Day 2).

Link to Thread 2
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5432103-darlington-nurses-vs-county-durham-and-darlington-nhs-trust-tribunal-thread-2

Five nurses working at Darlington Memorial Hospital have filed a legal case suing their employer, an NHS trust, for sexual harassment and sex discrimination. The nurses object to sharing the women’s changing facilities with a male colleague, Rose, who identifies as female. The NHS trust’s HR department dismissed the nurses’ concerns, stating they should “broaden their mindset” and “be educated”. More details can be found at Sex Matters and at Christian Concern who are supporting the nurses via the CLC.
The hearing started on October 20th, with evidence starting on October 22nd and is scheduled to last 3 weeks. To view the hearing online, requests for access had to be made by October 17th. The hearing is being live tweeted by Tribunal Tweets who have background to this case on their substack. An alternative to X is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets
The Judge made clear at the start of the public hearing on Day 1 that only TT or press have permission to tweet. If online observers see/hear something in the court that isn’t reported by TT, we don’t mention it until the next time there’s a break. This is a very cautious approach to avoid any accusations of “live reporting” on MN. Commentary on the content of TT tweets is fine as soon as they’re posted on X.
Key people:
C/Ns - Claimants, the Darlington nurses
R/T/Trust - Respondent, County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust
J/EJ – Judge/Employment Judge
NF - Niazi Fetto KC, barrister for claimants
SC - Simon Cheetham, KC, barrister for respondents
RH - Rose Henderson, trans identifying nurse
CG – Clare Gregory, ward manager
KD – Karen Danson, first claimant to give evidence.
BH – Bethany Hutchison, second claimant to give evidence
AH – Alistair Hutchison, husband of Bethany
Other abbreviations:
WFTCHTJ – Waiting For The Conference Host To Join
ET - Employment Tribunal
DMH/H – Hospital, Darlington Memorial Hospital
CR/CF - changing room or facilities
IX - internal investigation
XX – cross examination

Did any one else watching clock AT glance directly at the camera a few times, as if it just dawned on him that the whole world was witness?

Yes, he seems more intent on making clever legal points of detail, rathar than identifying the ideologically based bullshit that the policy is based on.

How do we churn out so many people who get big jobs who are so bad at them……

It gives me the rage.

Yes I know why and misogyny and everything but oh Lord it’s shocking to see it so clearly.

Am I right that he was arguing that the Policy has to wait until it's scheduled date for review and only then could it be considered 'out of date' rather than illegal or biased?

So the Trust didn't need to do anything until the scheduled time the Policy is looked at. Meaning that any potentially dodgy policy cannot be changed or challenged.

I can almost guarantee 95% of those with big jobs, the real work is done by their PA/Secretaries.

We resume.

J - of you go
NF - bundle 2 427, you say Morning AMc, all these things come with costs, we are now in June, if you scroll back she mentions Ellie?
NF - Ellie has responsibility for estates. Eleanor Earl (EE) she sends message to AMc with options, DMH first floor

NF - that's what we are talking about Darlington Mem Hospital
AT - yes, the others are the other two main hospitals
NF - she says under DMH, option - split office to create GN CR, second near high dependency would need new doorway. If we look at other hospitals, needs H&S

and other considerations inc PFI
AT - private finance initiative for some hospitals
NF - QEF?
AT - another part of estates
NF - and fire safety
AT - yes
NF - and mentions shower
AT - yes
NF - email 426 you write to AM, these are the options, all incur costs, no funds ID'd

NF - these are options that inovlved building work. What sort of facilities being discussed
AT - I wasn't involved but there had been a meeting mentioning looking at estates, my involvement was from email from AMc. I had had no involvement in what or where.
NF - 2 ref to GN CRs

Yet Again no access after a break 🙄

I can see names of others but no sound or visuals.

NF - meaning what, for men and women to use
AT - presumably
NF - your assumption bu tyou didn't know
AT - correct
NF - you asked for costs for options
AT - I asked AMc, in email I said I guess they come with costs, no mention anywhere. Didn't ask
NF - you said do you know cost

AT - yes beg your pardon
NF - AMc said yes, they do come with costs and that we have no funding. DMH would have to be funded through QEF. Says we should think about an F only CR and a GN CR.
AT - yes
NF - she says we can't do what leisure centres do as no room

NF - what became of the question?
AT - I don't know, I didn't take it any further
NF - you were only person on the email, so it stopped with you
AT - yes
NF - same day 11 June, this is what you said, these are the options and there are no funds. major problem, then heard from

NF - Helen popper? HP that a place for the objecting nurses had been identified. AT - yes
NF - read your statement, detail from HP, 2 spaces on DSU, for the individuals. They are all women aren't they
AT - It said any individuals
NF - but the objectors were all female
AT - yes

NF - did alarm bells not ring that you were treating the women detrimentally
AT - there was a lot going on, was just concerned that people had some space to use to feel comfortable
NF - you weren't doing that HP did
AT - I don't know if the assumption is that I was involved in

AT - all of this but I wasn't across the detail.
NF - pg 455 bundle 2 - towards end June 26th, message from you to Moore and TA, check in with Helen Coffer (apols have been using HP) about proposal. can we check this has been cascaded and see if anyone will use them

I was busy/lot going on - another one for the bingo card!

Gawd I wish we could see the nurses' faces while this pillock is giving his responses.

"I did not have any involvement"
"I don't know"
"Didn't ask"
"I didn't send the message personally"
"I wasn't involved" (again)
"I didn't take it any further"
"Not personally, no"
"I wasn't across the detail"
"There hadn't been any concerns raised"

This man is an utter gem amongst HR heads.

NF - so it occured to you that nobody might want to use them
AT - wanted to check arrangements had been cascaded and to see if anyone was using
NF - did you wonder if they were adequate?
AT - no
NF - 140 bundle your WS, you say info to IX that the alternative CR were used

NF - including by some of C's, not seen any complaints about these alternatives but complaints in the media, you are measuring adequacy by media coverage? AT - as said, we weren't involved in issues raised.
NF - perspective of C and colleagues at least some complained from summer

I've unfortunately not been able to follow this one like I did the Fife shit show. How's it going so far? I've very briefly skimmed and it doesn't seem like quite as much of a slam dunk as the Sandie Peggie case, or am I not getting the whole picture?

Leave and join again😥 Tedious, but it may work.

In the previous two tribunals I haven't been able to get access on an ipad or phone at all. I'm glad that we have an alternative route for mobile devices with this one.

The fucking face he pulled and the "I don't know" shrug.

Blood pressure is rising, I'm so angry.

did you wonder if they were adequate?

Might as well be a rhetorical question

NF - 23 about RH and his concerning behaviour, they saw nothing done for almost a year and then told they had to change elsewhere, in a meeting room and cubicle round the corner. Did you not think they might feel their complaints weren't worth hearing
AT - no
NF - and would

NF - amount to nothing?
AT - not at all
NF - to address this issue, of temprorary CR, they were still in use in ?? 25, you describe facilities at 86
AT - yes
NF - are you suggesting there that the C were wrong to describe them as inadequate and inapprop?
AT - in the media

Ditto here

Ooh, big man! Wanted to see the cr for himself.

Face is less red - I feel better for his blood pressure

We're pretty much at Tribunal full house now.

All we need now is 'I was on holiday' 'it was Christmas' and we're there

So he only went to actually look at the alternative changing room because they were getting bad press? Not to check on the welfare of the staff using them?