A space for respectful dialogue about sex, gender and diversity

[Tandora]

This is a thread for posters who want to talk and share a diverse range of opinions about sex, gender, being gender non-conforming and/or trans, and public policy. It is to learn from each other; to engage in a productive exchange, and to hear different sides of the story.

It is not a space for bullying and insults. Please do not join if your intention is to control the conversation and undermine those who disagree with you.

@RedToothBrush our posts crossed but agree with all you say. I remember one guide leader suggesting we have a girls pamper evening when I’d suggested we took them for archery or canoeing! For me, as a former leader, GirlGuides was about giving girls the chance to do risky activities away from the male gaze - canoeing, climbing, abseiling etc. But there is definitely a school of thought that suggests that the over regimentation in schools and the removal of all risky activities means that young men are also not being socialised to properly assess risk and, indeed, may make them become risk seekers - esp in the current social climate where ‘masculinity’ is negatively regarded.

Can someone explain why 'male' is abusive please? I like most men. I like most dogs too, but sometimes you get a wrong 'un, and the same goes for women. On the internet no one knows what you are so if you don't want to be called male you need to make it clear that you see it as abuse, but be prepared to say why.

I haven't seen you being called any of the other names on this board so I can't comment. I haven't seen a pile on either. I have seen an argument being challenged and I'm fine about that because that's how I learn. If you don't find that acceptable then there is a simple answer and I hope you find a place where your views fit in better.

I was respectful.

i asked questions respectfully.

respectfully, i never called anyone a man or directed any abuse at them.

I was, not respectfully in my view, accused of using my rape and sexual assault to justify my transphobia and accused of “trauma trumps”.

I engaged in this thread respectfully and asked questions respectfully and the op was disrespectful towards me and didn’t answer my questions.

for the record, I’ve never miscalled anyone. Never assumed gender to my knowledge - and as I understand it Tandora has said she is a woman. And I’ve accepted her premise that trans women are men who feel that they are women inside their heads.

'Male' and 'man' is not offensive or abusive, it's fact. You cannot control others by requiring them to join your belief system any more than you require them to say Hail Marys. You cannot require people to accept and join your belief system as a condition for talking to them; you've already prevented them stating their main issues to be discussed.

That they do not want to pretend for a man, or undress for a man, even if he would really feel he benefits from them performing for him - up to and including submitting to undressing/permitting strip searches/sharing a shower - that they believe he is a woman. Women have a right to say no to this.

You can find that offensive. They can find you trying to force you to enact their belief offensive. But they at least are not trying to force you to say that you believe this person is not a man, merely tolerate that they don't believe it. Other people have rights too.

I haven't done anything like that on this thread, yet my questions have gone unanswered.

But I'd also like to know what is disrespect about calling male people male?

Women who have to put up with people coming on this board and disagreeing with almost any aspect of gender critical feminism, are bloody frustrated by it.

It's self evident to most women here how gender is detrimental to women and anyone who wants to uphold it either doesn't get it, or doesn't give a fuck.

Spending, quite literally, weeks and weeks, trying to persuade women to forgo their rights by telling them off, complaining they're not speaking properly, refusing to engage, refusing to issue any citations, and talking gibberish, is infuriating.

This board was set up specifically so women could talk about the sex and gender issues, and sometimes unfortunately, the rules are that anyone can post on it.

To pretend that one wants respectful debate, and one just wants to move the conversation forward, whilst in reality trying to persuade women into complying, is of course going to make women angry. You would be weird if you weren't.

I guarantee that most women here are positively restrained.

Because it's outrageous.

An ideology that at its absolute best is nonsensical drivel, being taken seriously by anybody is crazy. When you add in that unless you comply, you will be subjected to violence it's scandalous.

Using mild insults like idiot, might be against the rules, but for the love of God, get some perspective.

Honestly, a woman who has suffered an horrific rape, and has explained exactly why she needs a male free environment was accused of playing Trauma Trumps, and has had to say, over and over how fucking respectful she's being.

Ffs!

Really this entire thread boils down to a fixed belief by activists that 'trans' is a top trump card that should properly exert control, authority and premiership over everyone else.

It can only even be discussed if people first submit, obey and accept the authority.

And anyone not accepting this is not 'respectful', will not be allowed to play, and teacher is very disappointed in them.

We do not however live in activist world, and law works equally for all. Which is largely why the SCJ has caused this amount of fuss. Allowing women equality of choice, language, belief and access is a Really Big Problem. On a binary sexed basis, and rooted in really not liking women very much.

That is a perfect example of a phenomena I have noticed over the last 6 years since I peaked... no matter what your current position, further knowledge can only ever send you in the direction of positions such as "sex matters, gender doesn't, full stop, end of" or "womanface is inherently disgusting and no man who wears it should be given even a tiny bit of the benefit of the doubt".

If it's a mental illness then why are you not seeking treatment?

If it's a paraphilia you are despicable for parading it in public, ever.

If it's not mental illnes or paraphilia, what is it? Nothing more than male predation, IMHO.

Hold the line. And watch that you've not inadvertently place it far closer to a TRA position than you should have.

I would have loved to have discussed a solution.

I said it either on this thread or a previous one.

Every fucker knows what happened to me because I had to tell security in work, my boss, HR, the people organising the conference I was at last week (no photos please - so although I didn’t share the gories they know I have valid reasons for not being photographed or being part of a vox pop), the folk in work know i moved offices to an access controlled building because the man who raped me is bailed and I’m at high risk of him trying to do me further harm.

I cannot use shared facilities because of my trauma. Again, not going into the gories.

Everyone knows I am disabled because I limp and use a stick and use the disabled loos because there isn’t room for me in a normal size cubicle.

I have to suck that up.

What is different about a trans person that they shouldn’t have to suck up people knowing they go to a unisex loo? (Using loos as an easy example.)

Why does their extreme distress trump mine?

I'm going to admit that I did say Tandora was male, and it was that specific response from T that sent me over the edge.

I think we've all got used to T's need to be the Dungeon Master and lay down the rules for how everyone else is allowed to tell their story. We might think of it as male behaviour when it's displayed by visitors here, but to be fair, quite a few women can be equally controlling.

But I know very few women who would respond that way to a rape survivor. Perhaps Vanessa Redgrave dismissing the victims of Gerry Healy - but that stands out in the memory because it's so rare.

I can honestly say that Tandora's behaviour on this thread has truly disgusted me on three levels related to Taztoy

The one particularly vile DARVO sarcastic post.
The mass of other posts to Taztoy.
The utter failure to respond even once in good faith to someone posting the most important questions, repeatedly and in the most polite way possible.

Anyone one of those things would be bad enough, but the three together...

We could then talk about Tandora's treatment of everyone else and wider conduct, which is hardly admirable either

I mention a couple of weeks ago that id been at a talk about women and adventure sport.

The talk had been really good. It was from a group that provided a network for women to join to find other women in a similar situation so they could improve participation and they gave grants for some expeditions.

The talk itself was about barriers to women and what stopped participation. It covered how women had learnt later in life that strength activities were good for bone and muscle strength into old age and how as a woman who didn't go to the gym women didn't really understand how this applies to them. It talked about menopause, periods and access to toilets in the countryside that men didn't face and how women didn't want to talk about this with men. It talked about economic barriers. It talked about skills and risk taking. It talked about the physical strength gap. It talked about confidence and anxiety that men didn't have in the same way. It talked about safety of meeting strangers to do activities and how if you were a lone woman you didn't want to just join a kayaking group dominated by men. It talked about barriers due to childcare issues. And it talked about socialising and how some walking groups were all for pensioners and young women wanted to meet others their own age. It covered the whole lot, and really was about sex being so central to all this.

It was great.

Then there were the questions after. Audience was a mix of men and women which given the subject and how there were a number of outdoor instructors there it was a useful session for both men and women to learn from.

One was from a woman and was perfectly good. The second, I'd seen coming and had commented to clocked about what was about to happen.

"Can transwomen join too?"
Yes was the response and it totally killed the session and no one else asked anything else.

It was a bloke with a non conforming haircut who had been giggling away to his mate throughout. With beard and trans flags on bag.

It completely undermined everything they'd just said and completely undermined the purpose of the network. I wouldnt join after that. It's in complete breach of the SC ruling.

Of course unless I'd wanted a direct confrontation there was then no way to challenge it and it wasn't the time to do it (weekend away with husband and son).

I was utterly furious about it.

None of what they were talking about was relevant to this guy. It was just about him using it as an opportunity for affirmation.

Yes I have also observed that phenomena.

There was a website called Gender Trender, run by a woman, Gallus Meg, who was I think American, and probably quite well known there in certain circles. I stumbled across it somehow, I can't remember how.

What got me every time was trans identifying men would come on there and be nice and reasonable, and say they understood, and let's all be friends together.

And she would go straight for the jugular.

I remember practically holding my breath, thinking crikey that's bloody harsh, that poor bloke.

And every, single, time she was right.

The mask would be instantly flung aside, and all the venom, women hatred, and rage would come pouring out.

And I've seen it often since.

It did make me think that, that certainly with this ideology, the benefit of the doubt is almost always pointless.

it doesn't mean I won't give it, but certainly from my side of things, it's largely just because I'm happy to wait

It is usually people wishfully posting that there must be a better way...

And they never say why it would be better, either, do they? Women are perfectly happy with sex-segregated sport. The only reason to change that is to benefit a subgroup of men.

What makes you think I hold such beliefs?

It's infuriating reading it, God knows what it was like experiencing it.

And we're supposed to sit here and constantly say how respectful we're being, and we're sorry for calling people idiots.

Honestly. It's almost funny. It's not just double standards it's triple and quadruple standards 😁

FFS @RedToothBrush I was almost typing who are they, I’d love to join … until the reveal.

So we may be able to see.patterns in risk assessment that tend to cluster in one sex or the other. And those may be beneficial in terms of being safer, or harmful in terms of anxiety and inhibition. Or both.

There is then the additional layer of criticising women for their supposedly poor risk assessment capability. That criticism really gets to me as the key aspect of misogyny and sexism.

Women learn by experience to be cautious, or not, but what is fucking depressingly inevitable is the criticism, ridicule, and diminishment they will get.

As with so many things, there may be many variables and contextual factors and aspects to consider, but the one constant is that women will be belittled and cast as inferior.

And thats the key with 'gender', and what is often missed. Its not that males and females have differences, both biological and social/cultural, but that the female position is almost always coded as inferior.

I have said a few times. I hold a hard line because to move it is a consent violation. And that’s a dangerous line to start to move down.

Women say no. For whatever reason they choose to have. The men who can’t accept that are rape apologists in my opinion. Because if you can’t accept that no, there’s no chance you’ll accept it in a sexual situation.

Generic 'you'.

How do you know they’re male? For example, I don’t appreciate being called male repeatedly as a diversionary tactic.

Well this thread has taken a really constructive turn. It's so interesting now the policing of language and thought seems to have ceased.

Do you remember that Australian, was it, advert where the woman got out of the lift because a trans identified male got in and stared at her, and it was meant to be a massive criticism of the woman.

So criticised for under assessment of risk, and also criticised for over assessment of risk.

Always. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

100%. Its almost like some people just really enjoy making women feel bad.