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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

A space for respectful dialogue about sex, gender and diversity

1000 replies

Tandora · 10/10/2025 11:16

This is a thread for posters who want to talk and share a diverse range of opinions about sex, gender, being gender non-conforming and/or trans, and public policy. It is to learn from each other; to engage in a productive exchange, and to hear different sides of the story.

It is not a space for bullying and insults. Please do not join if your intention is to control the conversation and undermine those who disagree with you.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
MistyGreenAndBlue · 10/10/2025 23:23

Tandora · 10/10/2025 15:34

If you say

the only criteria for being a transwoman is to be a man

It makes it impossible to describe what a transwoman is. Are all men therefore trans women? What is the difference between a transwoman and a man?

Probably already been asked but ok. Using your own criteria, what IS a Transwoman?
What IS the difference between a Transwoman and a man?
Because as of now, I'm not seeing that there IS a difference as regards to single sex provision. Both are male, neither are female or women of any kind.
So enlighten me.

murasaki · 10/10/2025 23:25

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/10/2025 23:16

Tandora might have abandoned this thread, but as you aptly said, is like the Terminator and will assuredly return.

Oh they'll be back, just not on this thread. And as you say, I stand by the malfunctioning terminator analogy.

thecatfromneptune · 10/10/2025 23:33

Tandora · 10/10/2025 11:44

No I don't think there is an essential conflict between the rights of women and girls and trans people. I believe that dismantling all forms of gender based control/ oppression/ hierarchy/ violence is necessary to dismantle patriarchy.

I believe that we can organise society in a way that accommodates a diversity of needs based on sex/gender.

I believe that dismantling all forms of gender based control/ oppression/ hierarchy/ violence is necessary to dismantle patriarchy.

There are plenty of trans writers who write about how much they enjoy the idea of gender based control / oppression / hierarchy / even violence as validating a “feminine” trans identity (including being objectified/cat-called/slapped by men/dominated sexually, and so on).

Isn’t that the very opposite of dismantling patriarchy? Are you perturbed at all by the transwomen who explicitly enjoy or welcome gender based oppression? Aren’t they anti-feminist?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/10/2025 23:33

CanSeeClearlyNowTheRainHasGone · 10/10/2025 23:23

That's obvious.

But we talk about women's elite sports, and we support the argument that paying women less for their success than men is discrimination.

It's a bit hypocritical then isn't it, to say that 13 year olds (who are at a similar disadvantage against adult men) should not be able to participate, or that they should not have a league of their own or be paid just as much for their international success.

And yes, I might argue that paralympians could.compete with able bodied people. I suppose it's a case of what we prize in sport.

If we prize excellence above all else then why do we revere paralympians or women's teams? Why not just the best of the best?

Alternatively, if what we prize is actually to do the best with whatever handicaps we start with, then why wouldn't we want a system that does a much more complete job of matching us up against similar opponents - or do what they do in horse racing. Add different fixed weights as a starting point in weightlifting for instance, then allow direct competition.

I'm not actually advocating that we do these things. I am however (since this is apparently a.discussion thread) trying to make people think about these things from first principles and see if they hold water.

I am finding it interesting that most people here seem to feel that privilege is acceptable without really engaging amd justifying why. For that's what our rights and sports leagues are really aren't they. Barring people who might beat us, allowing us to compete successfully rather than being also-rans.

I was partly doing it to.engender a discussion about how we prioritise different groups rights and how we find a way to live together when we have competing or conflicting rights.

I think Usain Bolt should be made to hop the hundred metres, and I should get a ten second head start. That will address our “competing rights”, won’t it? You don’t really seem to get the point of sport. Women have different bodies. Not inferior ones.

Christwosheds · 10/10/2025 23:37

Tandora · 10/10/2025 11:50

So you are advocating all spaces to be mixed sex?

No.

There are two binaries I would like to dismantle here:

All (spaces) / No (spaces)

"Mixed sex" / "Single sex".

If we are going to accommodate diversity in society we need more nuanced and less binary thinking.

Unfortunate then, that sex is binary.

SapphireSeptember · 10/10/2025 23:37

Thank you @spannasaurus , @Namelessnelly and @Ereshkigalangcleg . 😊 I'm off to Google.

NImumconfused · 10/10/2025 23:41

nutmeg7 · 10/10/2025 21:53

Toe the line.

Same spelling mistake one of the other scolders made on the other thread, interestingly... 🤔(after telling us how much more educated than us they were!).

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/10/2025 23:44

Which thread was that?

NImumconfused · 10/10/2025 23:53

It was either that one or the trolls one, I'm afraid I haven't got it in me tonight to go looking for the post. I just remember the rant about how the reason we didn't understand them was because our level of education was so far below theirs, quickly followed by the mistake.

Christwosheds · 10/10/2025 23:54

Tandora · 10/10/2025 12:45

If you believe that disagreement on this subject is definitionally a form of bullying this is not the thread for you.

I thought this was a thread to embrace ‘diversity’ ? Strange how often ‘this is not the thread for you’ seems to appear.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 11/10/2025 00:07

CanSeeClearlyNowTheRainHasGone · 10/10/2025 23:23

That's obvious.

But we talk about women's elite sports, and we support the argument that paying women less for their success than men is discrimination.

It's a bit hypocritical then isn't it, to say that 13 year olds (who are at a similar disadvantage against adult men) should not be able to participate, or that they should not have a league of their own or be paid just as much for their international success.

And yes, I might argue that paralympians could.compete with able bodied people. I suppose it's a case of what we prize in sport.

If we prize excellence above all else then why do we revere paralympians or women's teams? Why not just the best of the best?

Alternatively, if what we prize is actually to do the best with whatever handicaps we start with, then why wouldn't we want a system that does a much more complete job of matching us up against similar opponents - or do what they do in horse racing. Add different fixed weights as a starting point in weightlifting for instance, then allow direct competition.

I'm not actually advocating that we do these things. I am however (since this is apparently a.discussion thread) trying to make people think about these things from first principles and see if they hold water.

I am finding it interesting that most people here seem to feel that privilege is acceptable without really engaging amd justifying why. For that's what our rights and sports leagues are really aren't they. Barring people who might beat us, allowing us to compete successfully rather than being also-rans.

I was partly doing it to.engender a discussion about how we prioritise different groups rights and how we find a way to live together when we have competing or conflicting rights.

If we prize excellence above all else then why do we revere paralympians or women's teams? Why not just the best of the best?

By that argument, why bother with horse racing when motorbikes are faster? If skis get you down a mountain why bother with snowboard, luge or bobsleigh?

We prize, to use a crude metaphor, best of breed. The fastest person in the world will be a man. Ok, done. But humans crave entertainment and crave something to invest in, to care about. So once you know who the fastest man is, who is the second fastest? Who is the fastest woman?

Maybe you aren't that interested in male football because you can't get invested in the players but female football catches your interest so you care who wins there.

I applaud you trying the thought experiment of "it it wasn't like this, would we make it like this?". I do it a lot as well. It's a good way to challenge ones prejudices and assumptions. But it's also a trap, because in trying to start with a clean slate you can abstract underlying reasons out of your thought experiment.

Often the answer is "no, it didn't have to be like that. But given that this other thing (in the case of women, that's often the preceeding centuries of structural sexism) has happened, it's the best choice we could make".

I think when it comes to sport though, what you have abstracted out is the people. People watch sport, and people also do sport. A girl who plays football may well be just as interested in women's football as men's because it's her sport. Someone who loves cycling might want to watch a range of cats just to see how the different levels do. And I understand that many people prefer women's tennis because the male serves are mostly unreturnable now so there's very little actual tennis.

So ultimately, which sports are sucessful and how big the prizes are driven by raw performance but by the people who turn up to do it and the people who turn up to watch it. Your logical thought experiment that assumes the only point of sport is to to see who wins the ultimate single prize on a global board where everyone is ranked on the same scale is missing the point.

murasaki · 11/10/2025 00:49

Is someone actually saying paralympians aren't excellent at what they do? I'd argue that Kadeena Cox, Hannah Cockroft, Aled Davies, Alfie Hewitt, David Weir, Marcel Hug, Kare Adenegan, Tokito Oda, etc are absolutely excellent, and I enjoy watching them all.

MistyGreenAndBlue · 11/10/2025 04:06

BloominNora · 10/10/2025 16:41

Yes - but he accepts that he is male and does not demand to be described as a female or claimed that the surgery or the hormones make it true nor has he demanded access to single sex spaces - unlike the others who claim that even a performative attempt of a bad wig and shit make up make them a woman!

Debbie Hayton was one of the FIRST to insist he be allowed in the ladies. In a school no less. Because, yanno, he's a GENUINE transwoman with surgery and everything. Not like those other Jenny-come-latelys.

Shedmistress · 11/10/2025 04:36

MistyGreenAndBlue · 11/10/2025 04:06

Debbie Hayton was one of the FIRST to insist he be allowed in the ladies. In a school no less. Because, yanno, he's a GENUINE transwoman with surgery and everything. Not like those other Jenny-come-latelys.

100%. Hayton wrote the policy that allowed him and any male access into female spaces in schools across the UK. He saw that the tide started to turn and wanted to get in with the women at the start.

He is not a friend of women or girls and has not worked to get his policies overturned or changed back.

Easytoconfuse · 11/10/2025 06:07

TinyTeachr · 10/10/2025 16:57

@Tandora I work at a secondary school. We have a (fairly small) number of pupils who identify as other than their birth sex (in either direction) and a member of staff who used to be "Mr X" and is now referred to as "Ms X".

The system we have (and I assume other schools have similar systems) is that there are boys toilets, girls toilets and some single cubicle toilets (some of these used to be staff toilets, some were initially designed for physically disabled pupils to use). Pupils who identify as other than their birth sex can either use the toilets for their birth sex or they may choose to use the single cubicles. The teacher uses one of the toilets for female staff which is a single cubicle, and by agreement does not use the others which have multiple cubicles (partly as several female members of staff who are Muslim said they needed to have a space that they could be guaranteed there would be no biological males).

Is this the sort of arrangement you would like to see more broadly in society, or would this not be acceptable to you as transwomen would be excluded from the ladies toilets/changing rooms?

If this would not be a situation you would support please could you suggest what would be a solution you could get behind?

What happens to the disabled pupils whose toilets have been repurposed in your school? I know this isn't your fault, but taking from the disabled seems to be a common theme when dealing with the legal right of women to separate spaces. It seems to be conveniently forgotten that the disabled have a protected characteristic too and that not being able to use an accessible toilet limits their lives far more than the TRA's are currently protesting about. They can use other facilities but don't want to. The disabled don't have that massive luxury.

From the position of a woman with a disability, reclaiming the right to a single sex loo while taking away the loos I can use seems both unfair and dehumanising.

Namelessnelly · 11/10/2025 06:08

CanSeeClearlyNowTheRainHasGone · 10/10/2025 23:23

That's obvious.

But we talk about women's elite sports, and we support the argument that paying women less for their success than men is discrimination.

It's a bit hypocritical then isn't it, to say that 13 year olds (who are at a similar disadvantage against adult men) should not be able to participate, or that they should not have a league of their own or be paid just as much for their international success.

And yes, I might argue that paralympians could.compete with able bodied people. I suppose it's a case of what we prize in sport.

If we prize excellence above all else then why do we revere paralympians or women's teams? Why not just the best of the best?

Alternatively, if what we prize is actually to do the best with whatever handicaps we start with, then why wouldn't we want a system that does a much more complete job of matching us up against similar opponents - or do what they do in horse racing. Add different fixed weights as a starting point in weightlifting for instance, then allow direct competition.

I'm not actually advocating that we do these things. I am however (since this is apparently a.discussion thread) trying to make people think about these things from first principles and see if they hold water.

I am finding it interesting that most people here seem to feel that privilege is acceptable without really engaging amd justifying why. For that's what our rights and sports leagues are really aren't they. Barring people who might beat us, allowing us to compete successfully rather than being also-rans.

I was partly doing it to.engender a discussion about how we prioritise different groups rights and how we find a way to live together when we have competing or conflicting rights.

But there are under 14 leagues. There are under 10 leagues. There are many different groups in sport. In Rugby league for example there are under 7s. Under 10s under 11, under 14 abd under 18 leagues. Should we make the 6 year olds play with the 17 year olds? Or would that be dangerous and unfair? Are the 6 year olds privileged by having their own league? Or is it the fair abd right thing, this is just an example. to do to let those of a similar capability play together? Lots of sports do this. No one is denying anyone access to sport.

Mapletree1985 · 11/10/2025 06:09

Tandora · 10/10/2025 11:29

I would consider all trans people to be gender nonconforming because their bodies/identities do not fit conventional social understandings of sex/ gender.

Edited

A transwoman's physical body, before any medical interventions, conforms to conventional social understandings and the scientific definition of a male-sexed human body.

A person's identity is a separate thing from their body and is not defined by their body. A person's identity is where their gender resides. Gender does not reside in the body; I think you would agree with that.

By dressing in a way considered socially appropriate for their gender rather than their body, transwomen are conforming to expectations for their gender-identity; therefore, they are gender-conforming, not gender-nonconforming.

Easytoconfuse · 11/10/2025 06:20

CanSeeClearlyNowTheRainHasGone · 10/10/2025 22:12

I think that some things are simple. Do men and women and LGB people have sex based rights or don't they?

I think all people have rights. I have fought for women's rights to not be oppressed. I have fought for LGB people to not be victimised, stigmatised, or discriminated against.

But you miss the point of my argument/discussion point.

It's not about groups of people not deserving rights. It's about two things:

  1. If these groups are given rights, why not other arbitrary groupings? Why do we think that our rights are legitimate, and others are illegitimate.
  2. What rights does each group get (and why). And what happens when groups have conflicting rights. How do we accommodate that?

I'm not arguing for trans rights over women's rights. Far from it.

But I am raising the question of why we've moved to a position of entitlement and inflexibility. I'm sure before the TRAs became so annoying and demanding that we were more accommodating.

I am generally against arguing for something just because "it is". I always like to think about how we would arrange things if we started from scratch.

Otherwise, presumably, men would never have surrendered any of their 'rights'.

Are you honestly saying that women are being entitled because we want people to comply with the law?

I think Akua Reindorf summed it up when she said that transgender people have been lied to and need to direct their anger at the people who told them the lies, not those who they stole rights from. Please, don't forget, that all this has happened because a certain group chose to go beyond the law and gained unelected power within a wide variety of organisations.

Those of us who revere paraolympians do it because they've taken the hand they were dealt and excelled despite it. Meanwhile... no, I'd better not finish.

Mapletree1985 · 11/10/2025 06:23

Tandora · 10/10/2025 12:30

If you had been young today there's a good chance you would have been encouraged to identify as a boy. And then you might not have had your children.

I do not believe/ accept this to be true at all.
In my view this is a completely irrational fear that has been stirred up in society through anti-trans moral panic. Similar as to what happened in the 80s around the increasing visibility of gay people in society (fears that children would be "converted" into homosexuality).

The statistics do not support you.
https://segm.org/

There has been an explosion in the number of girls identifying as trans. Many of us who in previous generations merely wished we could be boys would today be convinced we can be boys, although changing sex is no more possible today than it was when I was a child.

SEGM promotes safe, compassionate, ethical and evidence-informed healthcare for children, adolescents, and young adults with gender dysphoria.

Historically, the small numbers of children presenting with gender dysphoria were primarily prepubescent males. In recent years, there has been a sharp increase in referrals of adolescents, and particularly adolescent females, to gender clinics. Many d...

https://segm.org

Easytoconfuse · 11/10/2025 06:25

CautiousLurker01 · 10/10/2025 22:47

@thirdfiddle I agree with your prior post. It is difficult to have a discussion if we cannot agree what terms and definitions mean to each party - even if the discussion that follows is about agreeing those terms. If non GC posters/OP could clarify we might be able to explore.

For example, I know that I understand a trans person to be any person who, for what ever reason - be that psychosexual, psychological, etc - believes that they are the gender that does not align with their natal sex. This is a broad umbrella term that brackets transexuals, AGP men, autistic gender confused teen women, sexual and psychological trauma victims, and trendy intellectuals who claim non-binary status. I do not believe people can change sex despite surgical intervention and, behind what ever driver they have for their desire to be the opposite sex, deep down they know that this or they would be rejecting the label ‘trans’ [not unlike India W].

I think most non GC posters believe that a trans people are who they say they are, that they are people who genuinely believe that their biological sex is subordinate to their sense of gender and that the latter defines them such that a trans women truly believes they should be regarded in all circumstances as ‘women’.

I am not sure what the point, however, of discussion of this is, though? Unless it is to convince the other side of our position, which clearly we cannot do given those positions are science/reality-based versus ideologically informed. It’s like arguing black is white and vice versa.

And then you have to ask, what is the point - what is the goal we hope to achieve? Ideally you’d hope understanding might lead to empathy - I certainly feel for many trans persons - the distress they live with, the mental anguish - but my response to that empathy is to want them to have access to better psychological care, in a timely manner, so that they can find a way to reconcile with the reality of their bodies and ameliorate that anguish. I want to protect them from irreversible medical treatments so that they have space to change their minds. Conversely I’d hope that those on the other side would want this avenue to be available to them and I’d sincerely hope they could develop some empathy for our position - our concern for vulnerable children and women seeking the privacy, safety and dignity of single sexed spaces. But, again, I don’t see any movement towards this. Certainly on these threads.

So it leaves us in a stalemate - both sides shouting into the void that their echo chamber creates.

I don't think it is autistic confused teen women. It's actually perfectly logical if you start from the premise that you are a teenager who wants to belong. Being autistic means a probabiility of being bullied, laughed at and knowing you don't belong. Then you identify as a transgender person and suddenly you are important. What you want matters, quite possibly for the first time ever. People aren't allowed to bully you any more. You are admired for your bravery.

What that says about society makes me feel sick, but I don't think they're confused at all. They've worked out a way to be treated better and the more they see the difference the more desperate they are not to have to go back to how they were.

Mapletree1985 · 11/10/2025 06:30

OneAmberFinch · 10/10/2025 12:59

FWIW I agree with @Tandora that I don't have an issue with people self-organising spaces that include women + men who identify as women, but exclude men who don't identify as women.

I wouldn't be particularly interested in joining such a group (or visiting that bar, or whatever it is) but I value freedom of association and think individuals should have the right to organise groups of whatever random categories of people one wants.

I think to the extent the government intervenes by mandating segregated spaces (e.g. toilets, prisons...) these should be on the basis of sex.

The problem is, men who identify as women will never be willing to concede that women can have single-sex spaces from which they are barred. They will continue to fight (often in very male ways) to gain entrance to them, because it's only by destroying those spaces as single-sex spaces that their gender is "validated".

ArabellaSaurus · 11/10/2025 06:50

Easytoconfuse · 11/10/2025 06:07

What happens to the disabled pupils whose toilets have been repurposed in your school? I know this isn't your fault, but taking from the disabled seems to be a common theme when dealing with the legal right of women to separate spaces. It seems to be conveniently forgotten that the disabled have a protected characteristic too and that not being able to use an accessible toilet limits their lives far more than the TRA's are currently protesting about. They can use other facilities but don't want to. The disabled don't have that massive luxury.

From the position of a woman with a disability, reclaiming the right to a single sex loo while taking away the loos I can use seems both unfair and dehumanising.

Yep.

Easytoconfuse · 11/10/2025 06:53

Mapletree1985 · 11/10/2025 06:30

The problem is, men who identify as women will never be willing to concede that women can have single-sex spaces from which they are barred. They will continue to fight (often in very male ways) to gain entrance to them, because it's only by destroying those spaces as single-sex spaces that their gender is "validated".

Validated is an interesting word, isn't it? Has any other poster who accepts that they were born a biological female and that is has good and bad aspects, just as I'm sure being born a man has, ever felt the need to be validated as a woman?

Validated means 'demonstrate or support the truth or value of' That's an interesting concept too, because it feels to me as if the use of words like cis-woman and phrases like Trans Women are Women reduces the truth and value of being a woman. We hear so much about being kind from certain groups, by which people mean putting other people's needs before our own. Yet, when push comes to shove (or threat) the women are the ones expected to compromise their values and existance to accomodate the male.

I want what I am legally entitled to, and which was stolen from me by people who justify themselves by saying they were 'anticipating' the law. That's another word for breaking it, isn't it? I also know that had the Supreme Court judgment gone the other way it would have been implemented immediately and without care for the women who were asked in the media at the time why they didn't feel sorry for the side who'd lost. That's not very kind, is it?

NextRinny · 11/10/2025 07:04

OP is trying to create an echo chamber...

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