Woman in men's rugby and misleading journalism

[JamieCannister]

Even as I start typing I'm not sure what I am going to say or exactly the point of this thread. I just stumbled upon a story whilst looking for something else.

Ellia Green seems to be ethnically Fijian, was born in 1993 in Fiji, and moved with her Polish and English adoptive parents to Australia when she was five. Her adoptive father died when she was young, and her adopting mum died 7 years ago when she was 25. She is in a lesbian relationship and they have a child. She claims to be the dad.

She had what appears to be a very successful (elite) career in women's Rugby Sevens, and some sort of a short career at pro level women's rugby proper.

She then came out as a trans'man' who has not changed her name and uses she/her and they/them pronouns.

Then there's this...

https://www.foxsports.com.au/rugby/rugby-2025-how-former-rugby-sevens-star-ellia-green-rediscovered-his-love-for-the-sport-transition/news-story/bc300a407be6209415139a8daed30467

Taken at face value the story is that a highly talented female rugby player has become a man and is competing against men at rugby.

Why are they not making clear that she has gone from elite level women's, to the New South Wales Suburban league? The suburban league (having googled) is the third level of rugby in NSW, and her team compete (and finish towards the bottom) in the 5th of 6th divisions at the third level. Players have to pay their club a membership fee in order to play.

“Now, when I go up against some of these guys, it’s not that’s not really much different from the power and speed of athletes on the 7s circuit that I played with who are a whole other level.”

The implication is that women can compete with men, but the reality seems to be more that an elite woman can compete near the very bottom of the men's amateur rugby pyramid. And even then "it’s not that’s not really much different" suggests to me that she's not finding it easy.

Then there's the implication that transition was some sort of joyous thing, when it seems clear that she was depressed as a result of her women's rugby career coming to an end and the loss of her mother, and that almost certainly played a part in (what I believe are) forming the mental health co-morbidities that are almost always present when women transition.

Partly proving the point that females don't have the same abilities as males do in sport.
I wish her well and keep my fingers crossed that she doesn't sustain too many injuries. After all her bones will never be as dense as theirs and she'll never be as heavy as a man her size, which after all matters a lot when they run at you at great speed, knock you to the ground and end up on top of you.

And also don’t mention that, IIRC, women choosing to play on men’s teams have to be appraised of the elevated risks they run and sign a disclaimer stating that they are aware of the risks they are running.

The story is all over the place. "..uses she/her and they/them pronouns" yet Fox Sports uses he/his.

Maybe "suburban" conveys the level of rugby to an Australian audience better than it does to a UK audience. Which would make it clearer that power, strength and speed at the top level of women's sevens (and rugby sevens is an intense game) is equivalent to the bottom level of local men's 15s rugby.

The phrase "it’s not that’s not really much different" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. (should it read "it's not really that much different", as what is written doesn't really make sense?)

As deadpan says, I hope she doesn't get badly injured, although it sounds like she is more worried about failing mentally as her mental health seems to be very dependent on her identity as a rugby player. I also hope that all the men she plays against know that they are playing against a woman and can decline to play without prejudice.

From a sporting fairness perspective, if Ellia has used (or still uses) any testosterone, I hope that the team is fully inclusive of synthetic testosterone use for all players in the men's team. It would be very unfair for Ellia to be the only one at significantly heightened risk of heart attack.

And if there hasn't been any synthetic testosterone (i.e. steroid) use, I hope that Ellia remains injury free when battling it out on the field with fully grown males.

Either way, I would have thought that the club has a duty of care here and is failing.

I agree with you OP that there seem to be some co-morbidities here that point to a reason why transition may have felt like the right answer 😔 If anything like that has led to decisions which are life impacting (such as testosterone use or breast removal), I sincerely hope that Ellia remains happy that this was the right choice to have made.

I also hope that all the men she plays against know that they are playing against a woman and can decline to play without prejudice.

Hm.

The New South Wales Suburban league Is part of the New South Wales Rugby Union, which is in turn a member of Rugby Australia. Have a look at Rugby Australia's transgender policy and imagine how that would go.
https://australia.rugby/diversity/LGBTQ-inclusion

Following on from @BonfireLady's post, I've had a quick google and Australian rugby has a very inclusive policy when it comes to trans players. There is quite an extensive procedure to go through which includes physical assessment. Players have to be aware that many hormone treatments may breach the anti doping code in which case they need a Theraputic Use Exemption. It is not clear to me whether this means that a TUE is always given in the case of trans players or whether it can be refused, which has far more concerning implications when it is applied to men wanting to play in women's competitions.

@BonfireLady

"I hope that the team is fully inclusive of synthetic testosterone use for all players in the men's team."

Um, no. Steroid use without a TUE is an insta-ban in rugby at any level. If she is on testosterone it will be with a TUE.

Males CANNOT play in women's rugby at all, no exception. There is a strict ban in place from World Rugby and has been for quite a while - in fact they were one of the first sports to do so.

Females can play in men's rugby after confirmation of physical ability. This may simply be women who play with the men because they are not being stretched enough in the women's squad (as several of the Red Roses did - notably Ellie Kildunne at Keighly). If they are undergoing a medical transition with hormonal treatment then they have to apply for a TUE.

I had a look at the insta and Green seems to be one of the fittest in the team (by a long shot - many have their tops off).

Players have to be aware that many hormone treatments may breach the anti doping code in which case they need a Theraputic Use Exemption.

The idea that anyone can have a therapeutic use exemption for taking testosterone is somewhat ridiculous, given synthetic steroids are performance enhancing.

Where is the line drawn? For example:

1. what if a male on the team has lower than average testosterone, his doctors say that this is impacting his life detrimentally and he needs steroids. By definition, some males will have lower than average testosterone.... because that's how averages work

2. if a female takes testosterone to support a medical transition (FtM), what is the threshold at which it is considered performance enhancing? Surely all of it is performance enhancing, given it is increasing muscle mass above naturally occurring levels

Even comparing two people of the same sex there can often be a difference whereby there is someone who is "gym fit" and looks absolutely ripped whilst not being able to translate that in full to real life, and another has worked on their dad's farm all their life, looks "in shape" but nothing special, but is bursting with strength and stamina.

Take two otherwise similar sized men and women and I am sure that the woman would need to look much much fitter than the man in order to actually be fitter. I am assuming that if you can run faster or lift more you are fitter, that's the definition of fit I am using

TUEs seem very problematic to me. It seems a lot of athletes, not least cyclists (a sport that probably had the biggest drug problem of any sport), have asthma, and need TUEs in order to improve their performance to offset their asthma

Asthma inhalers containing steroids are a really good example of how important it is to define the threshold between performance enhancing and treating a medical symptom.

They are strictly regulated for this reason.

The clear and obvious difference is that the condition that they are treating is physical. Without asthma treatment, there is risk of physical detriment and potentially death.

Whereas in the case of an FtM player, or a hypothetical male player with lower than average testosterone, there is no physical condition being treated.

I wonder if there is actually a team for women at a similar level to what she's playing now.

It's not unheard of for the most talented women in sports to play on men's teams. Where I am in Canada you occasionally see it in girl's hockey, less often now because there are more competitive girls teams, but at one time a very talented female player might struggle to find a high level team.

And the woman who was for many years the captain of our Olympic hockey team played for several years on a professional men's team in Europe.

No one claimed any of these women and girls were men but it's nothing new in and of itself. I would not be shocked if you see much the same thing with girl's rugby from time to time.

The injury risk is a big concern for me too. I don’t for one second believe her when she says men’s 3rd grade is softer than women’s elite 7s. I wonder if she’s been given special leeway because no one wants to insult her pedigree and are compromising the safety element as a result. You can see in a later photo in the article she’s the same size as other small women. She is being placed at risk of harm because of Rugby Australia’s inclusion policy and she escapes serious injury it will be down to luck, not her matched physical ability. Very worrying.

It’s also not fair on her opponents. A man could inflict a serious injury on a woman by hitting with forces another man would tolerate. Who is liable in that regard?

"Ellia Green has won Olympic gold, world series and has competed on the biggest stages in sport, yet it was a club rugby match on a suburban field in Clovelly which proved one of the most special games of his career."

To be fair, it's implied by 'yet' in the first paragraph that she's playing at a lower level, even if you're not quite sure what to make of 'club rugby', 'suburban field', or 'Clovelly'.

I assume that she is playing at a lower level because she has chosen to play at the Sydney Convicts which is an 'inclusive' club.

She wouldn't stand a chance at elite men's level, she doesn't have larger lungs like the fellas either, so apart from injury she wouldn't have the stamina.

They don’t need to be elite male rugby players in order to do her some serious damage on the pitch, the fact that she’s played formerly at the top level with other women will not prevent her from being injured. I’ve read about her before and she clearly has some serious mental health issues. I find it hard to believe that many of the men in the team are happy with this scenario.

They don’t need to be elite male rugby players in order to do her some serious damage on the pitch

Indeed. They'll need to dial right back during tackles. It's entirely possible that being of a lower league skillset will hinder their knowledge of how to do this while still contributing effectively to the game.

Even in an inclusive club, I share this sentiment:

I find it hard to believe that many of the men in the team are happy with this scenario.

And this:

It’s also not fair on her opponents. A man could inflict a serious injury on a woman by hitting with forces another man would tolerate. Who is liable in that regard?

Yes the club is inclusive, but they've implicitly demanded that anyone playing them either a) sets aside safety and fairness or b) prioritises the inclusion of an opposite-sex player as if it's somehow a better version of both of these.

I find it hard to believe that many of the men in the team are happy with this scenario.

If it's an "inclusive" team I'm sure they'll be basking in the glow of their virtuous brownie points.

If I were in charge of an opposing team, I would take into account her strengths (possibly faster and fitter, more skilful, experience of higher level rugby) and weaknesses (possible lack of bulk, height, weight, slower twitch muscle reactions) and adapt my tactics accordingly. Within the rules, obviously.

As a winger, being small is not necessarily a disadvantage if you are able to outpace and dodge the opposition, but she I doubt she will have the upper body strength to fend off tacklers or break out of tackles the way a small man could.

It does look like the club wants to play to win so it would be interesting to see how often she is selected to play for either the 1st or 2nd team. There doesn't seem to be anything about her on their website.

Due to Lewis Moody's recent diagnosis of MND its been all over the news that professional rugby players* are 15 times more likely than the general population to get MND. This is thought to be due to concussion and head injuries.

A woman playing rugby against men has a much higher risk of concussion and injury than if she were playing against women so does this mean thar Ellia will have a risk of getting MND more than 15 times higher than the gen pop.

*I'm not sure if the reported risk is for male players or all players and I don't know if they have looked at the male and female risk factors separately

I would be astonished if many many cyclists don't deliberately use asthma inhalers in a way that gives them a performance advantage.

Besides which I simply do not believe it is possible for a doctor to say "this person has asthma at a 68 level on a 0-100 scale. At 68 she needs two inhales of xxx strength medicine in yy quantities every day, and that will restore her performance to exactly the level she would be at if she did not have asthma".

TUE have a place in sport but they are inherently incredibly problematic IMHO.