Woman in men's rugby and misleading journalism

[JamieCannister]

Even as I start typing I'm not sure what I am going to say or exactly the point of this thread. I just stumbled upon a story whilst looking for something else.

Ellia Green seems to be ethnically Fijian, was born in 1993 in Fiji, and moved with her Polish and English adoptive parents to Australia when she was five. Her adoptive father died when she was young, and her adopting mum died 7 years ago when she was 25. She is in a lesbian relationship and they have a child. She claims to be the dad.

She had what appears to be a very successful (elite) career in women's Rugby Sevens, and some sort of a short career at pro level women's rugby proper.

She then came out as a trans'man' who has not changed her name and uses she/her and they/them pronouns.

Then there's this...

https://www.foxsports.com.au/rugby/rugby-2025-how-former-rugby-sevens-star-ellia-green-rediscovered-his-love-for-the-sport-transition/news-story/bc300a407be6209415139a8daed30467

Taken at face value the story is that a highly talented female rugby player has become a man and is competing against men at rugby.

Why are they not making clear that she has gone from elite level women's, to the New South Wales Suburban league? The suburban league (having googled) is the third level of rugby in NSW, and her team compete (and finish towards the bottom) in the 5th of 6th divisions at the third level. Players have to pay their club a membership fee in order to play.

“Now, when I go up against some of these guys, it’s not that’s not really much different from the power and speed of athletes on the 7s circuit that I played with who are a whole other level.”

The implication is that women can compete with men, but the reality seems to be more that an elite woman can compete near the very bottom of the men's amateur rugby pyramid. And even then "it’s not that’s not really much different" suggests to me that she's not finding it easy.

Then there's the implication that transition was some sort of joyous thing, when it seems clear that she was depressed as a result of her women's rugby career coming to an end and the loss of her mother, and that almost certainly played a part in (what I believe are) forming the mental health co-morbidities that are almost always present when women transition.

The website looks quite out of date... all rather odd. I was wondering whether she played just one game, but I checked and she seems to have played at least 4 or 5 times and scored 2 or 3 tries so it seems like she is - as an elite level woman - able to compete towards the very bottom of the amateur men's game.

Men will be allowed to play at the highest levels of Women’s Rugby in the Netherlands, courtesy of the Dutch Rugby Association. I presume they get full access to flash and peep in the changing rooms too.

https://nltimes.nl/2025/09/24/trans-women-allowed-dutch-womens-rugby-new-inclusivity-policy

“Our goal is for no one to feel excluded in our sport. With this policy we are combining inclusivity with the responsibility and fairness. We are working on a rugby community in which everyone can be themselves, in and outside of the field”. said Friso Horstmeier, chairman of the Dutch Rugby Association.

They are pure weasel words, aren’t they? Probably tried to not snigger outright at the parading of pure misogyny as ‘inclusive’, or ‘fair’ in anyway to women. Does ‘outside of the field’ mean the changing rooms? Is old Friso there admitting that the lads are being indulged and enabled to flash and peep on unconsenting women and girls, if they are so inclined. After they get a chance to bash women on the field. That may be the price of women being ‘included’ in women’s rugby.

Cycling doesn't have the biggest drug problem of any sport - far from it. Just check the ban list at UKADA: https://www.ukad.org.uk/sanctions

Getting a TUE for testosterone replacement therapy is hard - players need to have medicals with independent doctors and demonstrate pathologically low testosterone levels outside of the normal range. TUEs are only generally issued for transdermal gels, not for any injectable therapy. If transdermal gels were PEDs, every meathead down the gym would be using them rather than injecting.

You do, Ellie Killdunne (fullback of the Red Roses) played with Keighly Albion which like many RFL clubs doesn't have a women's side.

Yes, so really, it sounds to me like this situation is neither that unusual, nor worrisome, and actually has nothing to do with gender, as much as the story is trying to make it about that.

It's about a woman retired from elite rugby who has found a team of mostly men is now the best fit for her skill level. Chances are there isn't a woman's team available that's appropriate.

You really think Ellia wants to play in a women's team? But just can't find one?

No, Ellia wants the validation of playing in a men's team, with everyone pretending she's actually a man.

No, I don’t think that’s accurate at all. Ellie Kildunne is the world’s best women’s player and when younger, played with boys. She couldn’t play with men now.

Lots of retired elite players play club rugby at a level they’re comfortable with. They don’t all have to play at elite level or top grade. Green could and should play with other women. She’s not playing with the Convicts because of skill level, she will be a lot better skilled than them, she’s playing with them because they’re willing to overlook the safety element for the sake of inclusion.

Yet another attention seeking ignoramus brainwashed by the Trans Cult. A woman calls herself a man, despite being a woman and wants to play against men in professional rugby….is this so that when she is inevitably injured she can attempt to make a claim for the injuries sustained in this increasingly litigious world.

She would be better to focus her energies on addressing her clearly concerning delusion's that have lead her to believe that she can change her sex.

@Wowthatwasabigstep it's not professional rugby. She a retired international playing for a local club side. And of course she won't have any claim should be injured - any more than any other player has a claim. The rules are very clear.

Most men I know have a horror of even accidentally hurting a woman. When I played mixed 5-a-side football just for fun, you could see the men immediately change their behaviour when against a woman with the ball, versus a man. It could be a little annoying, I'm female, not 8 years old!

I do worry that she will get badly hurt, and the man responsible will then have to live with the guilt. The alternative is that the opposing team try their very best to treat her with kid-gloves, but that's not ideal either.

There does seem to be a very strong streak of selfishness running through most people who choose to "transition'. No thought for the reasonable concerns of others or any willingness to compromise.

I did say had not has.

But I would guess (based on what little I know) that there are probably a lot of riders still drug cheating (without being caught or maybe by cheating with TUEs)

I disagree. Sport should be single sex for the benefit of men and women.

Then you will simply take away the opportunity to participate in sport at all. In my sport (cycling) if you didn’t allow women to race in the open category then you would pretty much halve the number of races they had access to compared to men. That’s not equality.

She's retired from elite women's rugby however. So the question is, could she find a women's team, where she lives, playing at the correct level for a retired elite player?

I just don't see it as that unusual for women and girls playing at very high levels of the women's game, in a sport where there are more men's teams all round, to sometimes play on men's teams.

In the past it's never been taken as meaning that women's teams shouldn't exist,or should be open to men, or even that it is very common for women to do this. It's just pragmatic.

Given the fact that it seems like she maybe isn't even really trying to "live as a man" or insisting on male address or anything like that, this doesn't seem to me to be any differernt than other scenarios where this has happened from time to time. It's just the spin the article is placing on it.

I think someone like the captain of the Canadian women's team, if she wants to spend a couple of years playing professional men's hockey, and can get drafted, should be allowed to do so.

And since she's been retired some years now, if she wants to play on a men's old-timer team, given that there aren't nearly as many for women, that should be fine too.

I'm not sure why there would be any benefit to anyone to disallow that.

We all know it's unusual.And fundamentally it's nothing to do with gender ideology, and it wasn't when it happened 20 or 40 years ago either.

I think the question is could she find a woman's team, local to her, where she wouldn't dominate?

The men won't be as skilled, but they will challenge her skill, if that's what she is looking for.

She's retired from elite women's rugby however. So the question is, could she find a women's team, where she lives, playing at the correct level for a retired elite player?

She could play in any women’s competition at the highest level available. It’s not difficult. It doesn’t matter that she would be better than everyone, it’s still what should happen. Like I said, lots of men retire and play for their team at a level that’s beneath their actual ability and they may or may not be too good for that level but still do it anyway.

I just don't see it as that unusual for women and girls playing at very high levels of the women's game, in a sport where there are more men's teams all round, to sometimes play on men's teams.

It’s extremely unusual for this to happen post puberty in a contact sport. If it happens in contact sports after puberty it shouldn’t, regardless of how common you might think it is.

I think the question is could she find a woman's team, local to her, where she wouldn't dominate?

But so what if she does? It will be safe and fair. She’s a woman dominating other women in that scenario.

The men won't be as skilled, but they will challenge her skill, if that's what she is looking for.

If she wants to challenge her skills she could play touch. This threatens her safety. I’m not sure why that’s hard to understand.

I'm not sure why there would be any benefit to anyone to disallow that.

Because she could die? A man twice as big or strong as her could tackle her, break her neck or inflict a traumatic brain injury. Why should the possibility of that be allowed?

Given the fact that it seems like she maybe isn't even really trying to "live as a man" or insisting on male address or anything like that,

There are plenty of media stories about Ellia Green "transitioning to male" e.g.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/ellia-green-transgender-male_n_62fb9e20e4b06389482da639

Those stating that Ellie Kildunne played on a male team at Keighley Albion (and Keighley RUFC) are being disingenuous. She played for them between the ages of six and thirteen. There's no comparison with the situation for Ellia Green on a men's team.

Interesting. Thank you for sharing.

It's almost as if those who provided care and support for her as a child (her coach and presumably her parents) recognised that it would be dangerous to continue in mixed-sex rugby once the boys went through puberty.

Obviously Ellia is an adult but the club still has a duty of care. I wonder if it even recognises that it is fielding a mixed-sex team and what this means regarding injury risk.

Thank you for sharing this.

I rolled my eyes at the inappropriate use of the nonsense suicide statistic... and then when I got to this quote from Green I managed a "FFS" out loud:

“Banning transgender people from sport is disgraceful and hurtful,” Green says. “It only means the rates of suicide and mental health issues will get even worse.”

Nobody is banned from sport, unless they break the rules (like doping). Being banned from a category that you don't qualify for is not being banned from sport. If I tried to qualify for any of the Paralympic GB teams, I would fully expect such a "ban" and to be told to try out for the sport in the Olympic squad instead.

What's utterly disgraceful in this quote is the lie that trans(-identifying) people are banned from sport and then building on that by signposting suicide as a possible outcome.

It sounds like Ellia may well have been suicidal but it's a massive and dangerous leap for this article to insinuate that the answer all along had been that Ellia was meant to be a man. The danger in particular is to teenage girls who might be struggling with all the changes that happen in puberty and for whom Ellia could be a role model.

Women’s rugby is popular in Australia and a 3 second google search has turned up 15 women’s teams in Sydney. I’m sure that the current national players play in some of them so if Ellia wanted I’m sure she could find a team that has very skilled and fit women players that would challenge her abilities.

The team Ellia is playing for was set up as a team for gay men. It is now ‘inclusive’ so that is why she is playing for that team. It has nothing to do with skill levels of the men in that particular team.

Transgender players have to go through a documented process including physical assessments which is signed off by the league organisers, so there is no way that club, the men in that team, or any teams they play against won’t know that there is a woman playing.

I don’t know how Australian rugby assesses the risk of women playing in men’s teams but they have clearly concluded that the benefits outweigh the risks.

ETA: Girls and boys can play together up to the age of 12 in Australia, and up to U11s in England, do Ellie Dunne playing in a boys team is not unusual.

The team Ellia is playing for was set up as a team for gay men. It is now ‘inclusive’ so that is why she is playing for that team. It has nothing to do with skill levels of the men in that particular team.

Although it's sad that it's needed, it's great that there is a team which specifically champions gay men. Sadly "macho" sports like rugby (and football) have a reputation for homophobic intolerance so I can see why it is.

It's less great that their inclusion encompasses a willingly sacrificial female, pitted against fully grown male opponents. Still, if Green gets injured I guess they can all bask in the glory that it was all for the apparently greater good.

Women’s rugby is popular in Australia and a 3 second google search has turned up 15 women’s teams in Sydney. I’m sure that the current national players play in some of them so if Ellia wanted I’m sure she could find a team that has very skilled and fit women players that would challenge her abilities.

This would clearly be the more sensible route. Plus they could all still virtue-signal how inclusive they are. Similar to the way that the Canadian national football team does with its (female, non-binary identifying) player Quinn. Based on the coverage during the Olympic games, the press clearly love all of that. Green could inspire others and "prevent suicide" that way instead.