Kelly v Leonardo Employment Tribunal Thread 3

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Ms BM Kelly v Leonardo UK Limited Employment Tribunal – hearing Case number: 8001497/2024

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Abbreviations:
C or MK - Claimant, Maria Kelly
NC - Naomi Cunningham, barrister for C
KW - Katy Wedderburn, solicitor for C
R or L - Respondent. Leonardo UK
ST - Susanne Tanner KC, barrister for R
J - Judge
P - Panel member
GC - gender critical
GI - gender identity
AL - Andrew R Letton VP People Shared Services Leonardo - respondent witness

Tribunal Tweets coverage here

https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/kelly-vs-leonardo-uk-ltd

Thread 1 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5416903-kelly-v-leonardo-employment-tribunal-29th-september-10am?page=1

Thread 2 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5420656-kelly-v-leonardo-employment-tribunal-thread-2?page=1

That's the brickie's job. Trust me you don't want me doing that.

Or the plastering.

NC I want to suggest that you couild have taken sensible advice, you got it wrong and commicated this to the staff and use toilets for their sex, that's what you should have done
AL - that is your opinion. My opinion is that we have an obligation
NC = you should have faced down objections and told staff you have to obey the law.
AL - that's your view

Yes, it's just NCs view, it might be worth more than the view of AL if NC had done a law degree or a bar training course or pupillage or something like that.
But AL knows more about about the law than she does.🙄

By whom? People in the US? I know several associate and assistant professors socially, and they are not, online. However, I will ask them if it's different in their working life. Things may well have changed.

When DH was studying for a PhD decades ago most of his correspondence from abroad referred to him as professor, but nobody in the UK would.

@FeralWoman re your lair can I bring the bones of my enemies and a mouldy copy of the menopause policy from my last work place?

From T

AL we are you know we are not adverse to making change we just wanted to be sure
NC and in doing that you have acted recklessly with a long serving employee. This is despicable isn't it
AL - stutters...[disagrees]

25 Sept - note. Wording. Needs confirmation - reporting evidence of text based. Mustn't access text based communication.

This man reminds me of Kate Searle in SP’s ET. Whatever can the dynamic here be? Why is he so stubbornly captured? Surely it’s not just appeasing the unions.

Judge (?) asking Andy questions

Mouldy because of all the tears it made you drip while reading it?

... And a first class ticket to Nottingham. With his P45!

From TT

J Just a reminder to tell the truth, what I want to confirm haven't read text communications
In so far as you are aware - in Edinburgh - has a transwoman employee asked to use female bathroom
AL not to my knowledge
What about other offices?
AL not that I believe

Plus it doesn't affect him

Poor man, she has him by the throat and is squeezing with the strength of a hungry lioness with her jaws around a bewildered wildebeest, but he thinks he has just tied his tie a bit too tight and the room is overheated…..

All of this, these cases in employment tribunals, just illustrate what a men’s rights movement this is. The idea of a company not having the spine to write down a policy, communicate it, or even ask those affected by it if it’s acceptable (never mind legal), and just 🤷🏻‍♀️ when having to justify it in court.

What's the text thing?

Well, it's good to know the batshittery we're up against. But "well-organised", "secret meetings"... they obviously underestimate the effect of having facts on our side. Oh, and Naomi Campbell!

As for the trans employee who says "I haven't actually encountered any issues with being trans even from Maria", well what is she supposed to say exactly? "By the way, it's obvious you're a man and you shouldn't be in the women's toilets"? Because that worked out so well for Sandie Peggie, Dr Upton just agreed with her and went back to the men's. Oh, wait...

no, it's an ecumencal question

Not a clue

From TT

When did you become aware that a TW was using a female bathroom in Edinburgh>?
AL around time just before grievance.
What about other offices? A point when men id as women using bathrooms badged as f
AL my recollection based on requests [muffled again]

What I am asking to be clear - when did you become aware
AL - I haven't

AL we are you know we are not adverse to making change we just wanted to be sure
NC and in doing that you have acted recklessly with a long serving employee. This is despicable isn't it
AL - stutters...[disagrees
love the disagreeing stutters - splutters, probably.

we are you know we are not adverse to making change we just wanted to be sure
The stupidness of his approach is that they did not have to make changes at all, all they had to do was maintain the existing single sex provision and add some mixed sex facilities if they felt they should do something for 'the T people'

Break til 15.25

At risk of outing, Oxford, specifically, put in place a scheme a few years ago for calling some of its staff Professor, even though they did not hold chairs. It was received as "well, cheaper than paying them more!". I don't know whether this applies to Dr Foran or not. Curiously, in the US, Dr X sometimes seems to be more prestigious than Prof X, because not all US "professors" have PhDs, but all "Dr"s do!

TT's 1st afternoon tweets

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1974087176012116081.html

I said the same thing out loud 5 minutes ago.

I said: all this for 3 men they were too chicken to say ‘no’ to.

This man must have the bladder of a teenager. He's just sitting there through the break

This is golden. And so likely to be exraordinarily costly for the R. Someone should print and frame and pop it on his desk ready for his return to work.

NC I want to suggest that you couild have taken sensible advice, you got it wrong and commicated this to the staff and use toilets for their sex, that's what you should have done

AL - that is your opinion. My opinion is that we have an obligation

NC = you should have faced down objections and told staff you have to obey the law.

AL - that's your view