Kelly v Leonardo Employment Tribunal Thread 3

[ickky]

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Ms BM Kelly v Leonardo UK Limited Employment Tribunal – hearing Case number: 8001497/2024

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Abbreviations:
C or MK - Claimant, Maria Kelly
NC - Naomi Cunningham, barrister for C
KW - Katy Wedderburn, solicitor for C
R or L - Respondent. Leonardo UK
ST - Susanne Tanner KC, barrister for R
J - Judge
P - Panel member
GC - gender critical
GI - gender identity
AL - Andrew R Letton VP People Shared Services Leonardo - respondent witness

Tribunal Tweets coverage here

https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/kelly-vs-leonardo-uk-ltd

Thread 1 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5416903-kelly-v-leonardo-employment-tribunal-29th-september-10am?page=1

Thread 2 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5420656-kelly-v-leonardo-employment-tribunal-thread-2?page=1

True, but I would have expected him to have done some HR qualifications later in life given his role.

Oh, wait....

They’re cough drops/boiled sweets.

To be fair, not that many people went to university in the 1970s, especially if they had no family precedent. Not having a degree doesn't mean he's unintelligent.

Cough sweet, the adverts are worth finding on you tube.

From TT

NC - CM says concern for feelings of men, but not feelings of women whose privacy has been invaded.
It's here isn't it, that he understands the legal position that single sex is the legal position
Last para 509 - he thinks obvious solution single sex in every workplace,
AL talks about facilities - something to be considered.

NC - Unites position is that single sex should be accessible on self ID. And women to use single occupancy
From discussion with Unite I dont think that is true
[talks about his relationship with Unite.

NC their solution is forcing any women to be seen as noncompliant terfs
AL - what
NC you are telling me you don't know what terf means?
[explains to AL]
AL - I haven't heard this

Cough sweets. 😁

This is true.

Imagine needing to be reminded by NC that you swore an oath to tell the truth.

What an embarrassment.

AL has an "HNC in mechanical engineering related technologies/technicians" according to LinkedIn, and attended a technical college 1976-1980.

HNC 1980

On the Emplyment Policy and Skills Committee of MAKE!!!

Going back a bit, when asked about general knowledge of the law, AL claimed not to have heard of Forstater.

When asked about the lack of updated diversity training for employees after 2018, he said they knew they'd have to update¹ after Forstater.

¹ But didn't, ditto after FWS.

Mine proves I can build you a staircase a front door some windows and a roof!

Well, well well.

Good spot

That’s just jogged a memory for me, actually.
After the FWS judgment, i went snooping in the DEI groups at work, to see what the word on the street was.

And they also said they would simply ignore the judgment and see if they could find a way around it.

(Michael Foran is wonderful, gives very clear explanations ime, but he's not a professor, yet. He's an Associate Professor, which is the same as a Senior Lecturer at some other universities.)

Every day this week I have wished this tribunal had been during August and not when Oxford term is about to start, so that we could perhaps get MF's summaries and thoughts on the proceedings.

From TT

NC - turn to p512.
[pause to read]

NC - starts 511. from the union to unite members.
Look at bottom p512 SC Judgement
That para - woman = bio sex, lots of concern about trans and nb people we are working with these colleagues, members getting in contact'

NC - that demonstrates v clearly Unites hostility and determination to find ways around it
AL I can say we have had extensive discussions.
[muffled mic]
NC - turn p615 please.

Never heard of WORIADS, never heard of TERF - hasn't exactly been 'keeping abreast' then, has he?
Nul points as HR honcho!

They are called Professor, as a courtesy, more like US these days

He'll early retire over the weekend, Leonardo will say it was all one bad apple, and sweep it all under the carpet.

It's blindingly obvious they didn't give a shit about their female staff.

My feed after AL doesn't know what a TERF is.

Ah, it sounds like not wanting to upset the unions played a significant part in this. Given the impending strike it fits.

Andy you aren't helping your side one bit.

From TT

NC - sorry 614.
[Pause to read]
it is even more clear in first para, 'judgement is a serious threat' even more clear how hostile Unite's position is
AL -they are members to represent however they wish to do that is entirely up to them

NC - you say it has to be balanced but this is a judgement from the highest court in the land, the law as it always has been. You could have said that
AL we want to have a balanced situation. [more muffled]
AC the truth is that you are well aware that you will face outrage if you decide to obey the law. The truth is that you are defending this case becasue you want to blame someone else for the decision

AL no I am not, have to defend every case