Kelly v Leonardo Employment Tribunal Thread 3

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Ms BM Kelly v Leonardo UK Limited Employment Tribunal – hearing Case number: 8001497/2024

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Abbreviations:
C or MK - Claimant, Maria Kelly
NC - Naomi Cunningham, barrister for C
KW - Katy Wedderburn, solicitor for C
R or L - Respondent. Leonardo UK
ST - Susanne Tanner KC, barrister for R
J - Judge
P - Panel member
GC - gender critical
GI - gender identity
AL - Andrew R Letton VP People Shared Services Leonardo - respondent witness

Tribunal Tweets coverage here

https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/kelly-vs-leonardo-uk-ltd

Thread 1 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5416903-kelly-v-leonardo-employment-tribunal-29th-september-10am?page=1

Thread 2 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5420656-kelly-v-leonardo-employment-tribunal-thread-2?page=1

That will not be fun for the Andies of this world!

It's taken me a long while to catch up with these threads after being out yesterday.

From the other thread NC pointed out to AL that they had changed a Ladies loo to mixed sex and thought they had solved the problem. I wondered why she didn't ask him if they thought that rebadging the Gents loos as Mixed sex while leaving the Ladies alone would have been acceptable to him? I suspect he would have waffled.

Perhaps that didn't matter - the survey done at another branch found that the men were more tolerant of mixed sex facilities and that women disliked them.

Well, each to their own, but hundreds of women sent cards to Sandie's work and they were very much appreciated.

I've reported your post as whilst well meaning, the tribunal has already made clear she is fearful. We don't want to make her a target.

So unless Leonardo buck up their ideas and tell their other employees that they can't discriminate against Maria they might also have a constructive dismissal case on their hands.

I don't know how long she has to go before retirement but I can't imagine that she is going to enjoy continuing to work there.

It came from a woman, but it's worth reiterating that that woman was in the role of People and Capability lead for Electronics (according to several press sources). So very likely to be one of the channels of reporting dignity-related issues to the 'People Division', possibly one of the more approachable ones.
The point that she asked for clarification of the policy - presumably a 'People Division' responsibility - and waited for a year with no progress also bears this out.
Yes, painted as 'that pesky complaining terfy woman' - but this literally looks like her role or job... yet 'the Networks' (of which there was no Women's Network mentioned in the ET) have the ear of the boss in the dignity and facilities sphere.

@IDareSay There are a few differences in their situations, including that Maria has to go back to work on Monday, Sandie is not back at work yet. Maria was threatened by her employer about potentially bringing the company into disrespute, so I don't think we should be giving them ammunition.

There are a lot of employment law barristers who are taking these cases.

Does anyone have an address to send support via MK's legal team please. I looked up the solicitor but reached a website that seems to facilitate independent practices for solicitors , but I couldn't find an office address.

This is the website and page for Maria's solicitor:

https://gunnercooke.com/people/katy-wedderburn/

If she works out of the Edinburgh office, the address is here:

https://gunnercooke.com/get-in-touch/

80 George Street
Edinburgh
EH2 3BU

The Equalise group was discussed by MK in her evidence. It's not a descendant of a women's group, it's what Leonardo set up instead of a women's group. Women had asked for a staff network but weren't allowed one.

Comment in the Times, I’ll send a postcard to MK’s work, it will show L that MK is not alone and that, as her friend, Mary Gordon, used to say “women are watching”.

I see my post with the office address has now been deleted, so thanks to @Boiledbeetle for posting the address. If this one gets deleted, then anyone is free to PM me for the address.

The penny doesn't tend to drop immediately. Several people on here have mentioned repeated peaking, too. If he has been made to think, and if he has existing sympathy for any women (I think most men do, even if it is sometimes buried deep), he may have started the process.

In all my long years on Mumsnet I have never had a post deleted.
It was simply sharing an address that was freely available and saying I was going to send support to Maria. Anyone who thought it was a bad idea could simply have said so and offered an alternative; there was no need to report.

@IDareSay you're not getting it. the address would have remained visible and as I've already said, Maria seems to be nervous about returning to work and has already been threatened regarding bringing her company into disrespute. I know you were well meaning but its better to send things via her solicitor.

In your opinion. My opinion, and that of quite a few others, differs. Why can't you let people make that decision for themselves without policing the thread?

How can you know whether Maria is nervous about returning to work? She took the case to court, she didn’t resign before doing that, so I assume she is fine about it.

I think her real problem will be with social media.

As far as sending cards to her via Leonardo - it tells the firm that she has support. She was not the only women. Maybe a more generic card to Leonardo would be better? Perhaps something along the lines - " I have been following your ET. Do you now intend to obey the law, or is this a firm only obeys the law when it's expedient?" I.e. tell them that their card is marked.

If you want to make a point that Maria has support you can do so by sending a postcard to ANDY and not mentioning Maria's name. Or send a card/letter marked personal to Maria, who can choose whether or not to disply them in her office. If you do anything other than that I dont see you as a supporter.

it was different for Sandie where everyone in FIFE already knew about the tribunal because it was being covered extensively in the press.

Someone ought to post the usual reminder that anyone can pretend to be anything on the internet. We could have someone appear claiming to be Andy, wouldnt necessarily be true.

Many of us watched Maria break down in court during evidence in chief, and she said that in the light of what's gone on in the lead up to the tribunal (she was threatened with a potential disciplinary at one point, in response to a letter to Leonardo UK from her solicitor) he doesn't know if she'll feel able to go back.

I really really want to find a way to send support Maria, but after seeing that, and after seeing the feckless VP of People (HR basically) on the stand, I feel wary of sending mail to her work address.

As has mine.

So I'll repost the rest of it minus the address as my opinion on this remains the same.

I'd go with the office address

I don't think it's putting a target on her back her work employer and address is public knowledge.

The people at work already know who she is and what's happened. They need to know that she's not an outlier, she's the norm.

They probably don't get much actual post these days so suddenly having a lot of post arrive and it having to be delivered to Maria's desk will have much more impact on her fellow employees and her employer that actually it's not just Maria, there are lots of us and we support her.

Leonardos have already been told by Naomi that if there is any come back at Maria they will be on the hook because they forced Maria to take the tribunal route so sending postcards to her work will help remind her employer of their responsibilities.

Don't worry, it's not a fire. There's just steam coming out of my ears! I hadn't realised that and there aren't enough Tunnocks in the universe to make me feel better about that.

Can you imagine if they'd said that to the Alphabetti Spaghetti gang?

This is so crazy. I can't imagine ever our HR department sending out an email to ask if they should comply with the law of the country we are based in.

On the subject of offering 'golden bridges' to the misguided like AL:

I'm a great believer in redemption - I may be an atheist, but I'm a Catholic atheist
Everybody does wrong things sometimes, and in most cases they should be given a way to move past their wrong-doings - as long as they acknowledge them.

Non-Catholics sometimes think that Confession means that you tell the priest your sins, he forgives you, and you skip out of the church, free to start sinning again.
It's not like that - technically, the priest can't forgive you, only God can.
But more importantly, your sins will only be forgiven if you have a 'firm purpose of amendment' not to sin again. So you aren't given a free pass to go out and do it all again until your next Confession.

So if AL had turned up at the tribunal having prepared properly, 'examined his conscience', or rather that of his employer, researched the current employment laws and practices regarding sex and gender, and then turned up to confess that Leonardo had got it wrong - led astray by bad companions, like MakeUK - and they had a firm purpose of amendment to make things right for all their female employees from now onwards...ego te absolvo, Andy, the golden bridge is over there...

But he didn't, did he?