Kelly v Leonardo Employment Tribunal Thread 3

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Ms BM Kelly v Leonardo UK Limited Employment Tribunal – hearing Case number: 8001497/2024

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Abbreviations:
C or MK - Claimant, Maria Kelly
NC - Naomi Cunningham, barrister for C
KW - Katy Wedderburn, solicitor for C
R or L - Respondent. Leonardo UK
ST - Susanne Tanner KC, barrister for R
J - Judge
P - Panel member
GC - gender critical
GI - gender identity
AL - Andrew R Letton VP People Shared Services Leonardo - respondent witness

Tribunal Tweets coverage here

https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/kelly-vs-leonardo-uk-ltd

Thread 1 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5416903-kelly-v-leonardo-employment-tribunal-29th-september-10am?page=1

Thread 2 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5420656-kelly-v-leonardo-employment-tribunal-thread-2?page=1

Have to say my impression of AL yesterday ( purely based on reading Tribunal Tweets) was that he had been pretty much uninterested and/or oblivious of the wider issues and arguments around trans ideology/women's rights. As far as he was concerned he was doing the 'right thing'. He wants to be a nice guy.

The actions he'd had insisted to him were the legal, correct and most compassionate thing to do were what he implemented. He ( like most others) didn't consider that women ( as a protected group )also have legal rights and protections and that they may also be vulnerable.

Leonardo is a large international firm and ultimately he was a cog in the process, albeit one at quite a senior level. He came across as open to reason and was quite easily led by NC towards the obvious conclusions on the consequences of trans ideology in practice, and its impact upon women.

It wasn't lazy or thoughtless. You, like all of us, were busy living life and buying the false security that we had equal rights. Meanwhile it was like the frog in the boiling water, laced with a generous dollop of 'nice girls put other people first.' Most women are hard wired to do that, because the human race would be extinct if we didn't look after the weaker. Even on my most cynical days I don't think I want that.

I wonder if that is what the matriarch/crone/witch/Karen is for? To reach an age of wisdom where we stand up and say 'well, actually, no. Not any more.' I was going astray quite nicely by myself but 'meeting' all the amazing women here is accelerating the process.

I'm still learning to replace phrases like 'I don't want to make a fuss' with 'this is what I am supposed to have, so i'd like it please' and 'they probably didn't mean it' with 'they said it and if I don't point out that it's wrong and upsetting they'll keep doing it to other people who are having a harder time than I am and I can't let that happen.'

I want to become the old woman who wears purple. https://www.scottishpoetrylibrary.org.uk/poem/warning/

Till I manage it, I shall learn from the women who are ahead of me, and tell myself 'be more Naomi Cunningham."

But please, please, I wasn't criticising you. I don't think you need anyone else doing that, do you? If you're like me there are plenty of volunteers to do it.

Maria MacLachlan was assaulted at Speakers Corner by male youths. She was forced to call one of them "she" when it came to court and lost compensation as a result. No other assailants were prosecuted.

https://sex-matters.org/about-us/what-we-are-up-against/intimidation-threats-and-violence-by-trans-rights-activists/

Alan Heness created Sex, Not Gender, an organisation set up to counter the creeping replacement of the term sex with the term ‘gender’ in areas such as equality monitoring forms and diversity policies. He regularly challenges organisations on their diversity monitoring forms, particularly for gathering data illegally under GDPR and the Equality Act.

https://www.sexnotgender.info/

I do like your wonky wooden bridge with crocodiles underneath image. And on the other hand, we're mean to roll out a shiny, glowing bridge which has small furry woodland creatures gambolling around it and sporadic flurries of celebratory star sprinkles with hearty shouts of 'come on over, all is given!'.

Yes but you can be sure as hell that were any of us earning 6 figures being a Head of People for a big company we'd actually investigate what the law is and follow it even if not previously aware.

This level of stupid when it's his job is clearly negligent.

He KNEW they were breaking the law and did it anyway because it's only women's rights, after all.

If I was a customer I'd want to know what other laws Leonardo break when they don't like them.

I will start having sympathy for these men when they start losing their jobs for their staggering negligence and inability to do the most basic components of their job.

Once that happens, and there is even minimal accountability for breaking the law, I'll have sympathy.

But at the moment it's the lower paid women having to leave their job because there's a man wanking in the next cubicle in the toilets whilst pregnant and throwing up that I have sympathy for. You know, the ones being told THEY'RE the bigots whilst being subjected to sexual harassment at work.

Let's not forget that Wadhwa eventually had to resign, and rather shamefully too. Too little, too late, too likely he's still living off ordinary taxpayers, but still so welcome. And he hasn't been parading on any podcasts of late.

If he is a member of MAKE, and involved in setting policy there, isn't there a conflict of interest re his job at Leonardo as there is no independent guidance?

No. Make UK is a trade association. Its members sit on committees to discuss many issues - government funding for defence contracts, increasing skills in the workplace etc.
The legal advice from Make UK will probably come from their general counsel lawyers and is a perk for company members, many of which are small and can't afford their own lawyers.
The policy position will come from equality groups like Stonewall, who are the experts.
Make UK has a massive exhibition at the NEC every year incorporating four different exhibitions which focus on networks, and making business connections. This means the big companies can find new suppliers and the suppliers can pitch for contracts.
This is its main purpose.
The committees arise from the companies asking questions like, why can't we get numerate and literate engineers? How do we ensure quality in the supply chain? They come together to discuss that. Equality is very low, except as a way to diversify the workforce to employ more people. Which is done to make more money. Hardly any thought is given to how those diverse groups are then supported.
Along comes Stonewall pressuring them, very vocal, stating the law as they wish it to be and Make UK etc say thank you very much, we don't have to think about it.
If you can see that Make UK is all about making more money for its members, and gaining more money in membership fees, you'll see its focus.
What surprises me is that Leonardo - a massive international aerospace and defence conglomerate - has general counsel (lawyers to support contract writing, mergers and acquisitions, corporate law) but relies on Make UK for its employment law responsibilities. They could easily afford to directly employ solicitors specialising in employment law, or at the very least have an employment law firm on retainer to advise them. Costs range from £2,500 + VAT (which is reclaimable) to £10k+, so it's not even as pricey as paying trade union reps to be full time reps, let alone Andy's wages.

I would recommend sending support via her solicitor or Naomi's chambers. We don't want to put another target on her back.

I didn’t watch the livestream but I was really struck by that impression - “we’re doing things with good intentions and the union agrees so we must be ok”. So sure of this he didn’t ver bother to engage with the detail even when he was required to represent the company at ET… I wonder if he realises today how unlawful their policy/actions were? Yesterday it seemed not so much….

Great idea @IDareSay

@MyrtleLion I think sending support to her work place shows people there that MK is not alone.

Or indeed Andy himself?!
Maybe why the judge asked about social media use? She saw a tunnocks in his bag?

And remember, no one was complaining. Other than that pesky woman and we've made provisions for her. Because if no one complains, it doesn't matter if we're breaking the law.

I got the impression that he simply wasn't grasping the point, at all. He agreed with NC about the VP parking scenario but even then the penny didn't appear to drop.

It’s a depressing thought. But many lawyers thought after FWS that it would be insurance companies who would bring private sector companies to heel, and insist the law be followed or cover invalidated. So where are L’s insurers in all this? They may not think they are the bottomless piggy bank that the NHS appears to think it is?

My experience of insurers is that they only investigate legal compliance after a claim, when they’re looking for reasons to avoid paying out. Up to that point, while they’re taking your premiums, they will accept whatever you say.

In this case damages are likely to be in the small five figure range which isn’t even a rounding error in Leonardo’s petty cash spending.

Does Maria have to go back to work on Monday? I feel for her if so.

I was involved with the union movement just before the Equality Act came into force. The odd TiM showed up and was allowed to go to the women's conferences and committees. Part of being kind. The unions did a lot of defending them when they were fired for being trans. Which was illegal and remains illegal and is the main thrust of the trans rights in the EA2010.

I met one called Claire, a middle-aged man in his 50s with grown children who rejected him. He made a fortune taking companies to tribunal for not hiring him because he was trans. The companies usually settled so it was never tested in court. I assumed he'd had castration surgery, though I don't know that for sure. He used the Ladies. It was uncomfortable because he behaved like a man. But it was just him.

This was probably the way that a lot of organisations worked. It was just one and they weren't harming anyone. And they took a lot of pains to "pass". I knew Claire wasn't a woman but he was trying to fit in. No policy was passed, it just was what it was.

And so it might have continued, even beyond the Equality Act, if Stonewall hadn't massively overreached. The arrogance and determination of the men to be more public, more fetishistic, and to enjoy relish our discomfort.

Claire peaked me but I was a single woman unable to do anything about it, despite raising it with the union. I have met nearly 100 trans-identifying men since then. They rush to the unions and political parties because they are accepting of them. It's similar to a lot of mentally unwell people who gravitate to church and religious groups, because they are accepted.

It took more years in the early 2010s to find others who felt the same. And I've lost a lot of friends who assume I'm homophobic because I refuse to tolerate the T.

Akua Reindorf KC has said it's like the early days of the Race Relations Act when companies were blatantly racist and lost a lot.of tribunals until they realised they had to comply.

We are winning and we are hitting these organisations in their pocket. That's why it will change in the next decade, but there will be more cases and more suffering. But we will prevail.

But the postroom may not send them on. Unionised staff may talk and freeze her out much more than those who are aware of this case.

If your aim is to support MK directly, then I would send via her lawyers. If your aim is to let Leonardo staff know she has support, it may backfire. NC has already said she has a target on her back. I don't want to make it bigger.

Many more cases - NC can’t do them all and I’m sure wouldn’t want to. But she has done a lot of work for others to rely on in future hearings. But how crazy is this, I keep thinking I’m imagining it all

I'm sure we'll see Charlotte Elves taking some on in the not too distant future.

but I think there will need to be a few more demonstrations like the Sandy Peggie case, the Darlington nurses, and this one to make wider change stick.

I suspect many organisations would also like somebody else to be the test case for the discrimination claims that that will inevitably be funded by the Good Law Project.

@IDareSay I've reported your post as whilst well meaning, the tribunal has already made clear she is fearful. We don't want to make her a target.