Kelly v Leonardo Employment Tribunal Thread 3

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Ms BM Kelly v Leonardo UK Limited Employment Tribunal – hearing Case number: 8001497/2024

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Abbreviations:
C or MK - Claimant, Maria Kelly
NC - Naomi Cunningham, barrister for C
KW - Katy Wedderburn, solicitor for C
R or L - Respondent. Leonardo UK
ST - Susanne Tanner KC, barrister for R
J - Judge
P - Panel member
GC - gender critical
GI - gender identity
AL - Andrew R Letton VP People Shared Services Leonardo - respondent witness

Tribunal Tweets coverage here

https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/kelly-vs-leonardo-uk-ltd

Thread 1 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5416903-kelly-v-leonardo-employment-tribunal-29th-september-10am?page=1

Thread 2 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5420656-kelly-v-leonardo-employment-tribunal-thread-2?page=1

An ex colleague of mine insisted on that. And fair play to her.

Are they finished for the day? there was talk of a 5 min break on TT but then it all went end-ish.

Yes, back on the 22nd. The judge put AL out of his misery.

Yep, all done now until the 22nd.

Oh gosh thanks I hadn’t clocked that…. HR turned the ladies into mixed sex and the secret loo unisex on the basis of no request….

And it took Kelly a year to get a copy of policy or confirmation of practice?

The wilful blindness is just scary
Women don’t factor even if making a fuss while TIMs get what they’ve not even asked for?!?!

wtf

Yes.

For no reason whatsoever I'm going to comment that I've just listened on audible to that nasty scene where Umbridge is positively enjoying Trelawney losing her job and home (until Dumbledore comes along and stops her being turfed out).

For some reason all the bits of Umbridge being nasty to people she considers her lessers and delighting in their misfortune is really reminding me of a lot of things.

Thank you CC & M.. So AL can squirm away till then😠
But he's left us with that killer the law/your view quote to remember him by😃
Edited to say Thank you to our TT queen Myrtle, hope you get better soon!

It could have been a reference to them being 'security cleared'? Companies involved in the Defence Industry often vet their staff. Jobs and contracts can often be advertised seeking people who have already been through the SC as an example. This is why ex-forces people are often over represented on these companies.

careers.uk.leonardo.com/gb/en/security-and-vetting

He did an Engineering Apprenticeship at Ferranti (which ended up as Leonardo ) and qualified with an HNC.

Perfectly normal, back in those days, and an HNC Level 4 course (so equivalent to completing the first year of an honours Degree course), with the two years on the job training as well as one day per week day release at Technical College (or 4 years, if you did the ONC course (equivalent to A levels) and otj training, first,)

And the "one day" at Technical college was actually a 9 am - 9 pm day, with breaks for Lunch 1-2 and again for an Evening meal at 6 pm.

The Technical Collage canteens would stay open until 7 pm, to provide a day time and evening meal (subsidised by the Employer)

Thus an Employer ended up with an educated AND technically skilled set of Engineers aged 21, (if starting aged 16) in addition to those coming in at 21 with Degrees, but very few or no technical skills.

Not true, see my post above about Apprenticeship

I'm annoyed about the free means he was getting at the College now.

Quite, I'm not questioning his engineering chops, but I am very much questioning his ability and qualifications to do his current role.

The diversity training I did as a charity Trustee was entirely focussed on jargon and being Kind.They didn't have a clue about balancing one human right against another, and not only did the charity pay them for this drivel, they were getting charitable grants elsewhere to help them deliver it. All these HR rainbow lanyardites are being trained not to regard the law as anything to do with them

Vetting is a lot more than what countries you have visited. It is a multi faceted risk assessment that covers criminal records, financial, social
media, family members, maybe your associates/ friends etc. Ok it doesn’t catch everything (see the Met Police and Sarah Everard’s killer) but it is a lot more comprehensive than DBS checks.

I still maintain that it's more about the men at this company deliberately de-activating part of their brain for strategic reasons. I think yesterday, in chief, he said something quite minimising and dismissive about the Pride or LGBT+ activities - that run events and that they take place 'outside'.

The men folk had a recruitment and retention strategy that worked until it didn't. So now it's very hard to recall all the detail but everything they did was to be fair to everybody. (everybody not including women because why would they, unless a former CEO's daughter wanted to identify as non binary and remain in a relatviely non-threatening low-mid level role).

Exactly. Some women don’t even realise how they really feel about mixed sex toilets until it happens. A friend of mine thought she’d be fine encountering a man but when she was in a totally unlawful 2 cubicle room and a man walked in, she found it quite upsetting.

It's my suggested lair, and please feel free. If we open the sluice gates when they finish the work, then they will all be swept out to sea. Till then, there's a massive crane digging a hole and I could let you know when they start to fill it in and we could sneak down one night.

Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread with updates and insights.

Here's my wild but suitably toilet-based speculation on why the TT point was raised.

One of the chaps in court was in the gents during the break and overheard mutterings from a cubicle which aroused his suspicion that a witness was reading something on his phone that he shouldn't.

However Andy's denial, under oath, is on the record so it must have been something else.

I second that.
What Maria has had to go through was, and is, barbaric.
AL's testimony today was atrocious.

Interesting tone in this BBC Article
I think the Journo may have actually grasped what NC was saying
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/czrpx088r2eo

Thanks to @MyrtleLion, @ickky @MarieDeGournay for sterling work and to everyone for their contributions. And best wishes for a swift recovery to those who are feeling poorly.

"The tribunal, taking place before employment judge Lord Sutherland, continues."

Eh?

Good article from the BBC. But FFS the journalist has misgendered and mistitled the judge. Don't they get training in this stuff any more? 'Lord Sutherland' indeed. 🙄

Quite!

Not keeping up with training, or the law or results of ETs.
Not having heard the word TERF
Not having read the claim?!
Not having prepared for the tribunal at all....

versus

Maria Kelly, senior engineer, who would have had to work twice as hard and be twice as good as colleagues (maybe many times more than AL) to get to her senior role. If she'd been bad at her job she'd have been drummed out many years ago and I can't imagine the sexism she's already had to ignore.... And they didn't even have the decency to let her have the privacy of a single sex loo at work. What a bunch of feckers