Is this lawful in ireland - Pennys changing rooms

[frogyoda]

In the Pennys near me, changing rooms are either ‘women’ only’ or ‘all gender’.

Is it legal under Irish law to exclude men who say they identify as women from women-only changing rooms?

In Ireland I think men with a GRC saying they are women would be entitled to enter the changing room. So the Pennys sign is misleading as many people seeing it might assume its for actual women - not people who say their gender is ‘woman’?

Penny's 'women only' changing rooms are mixed sex as they are based on gender identity.

No point in two changing rooms if everyone is allowed in both. They are treating their customers as idiots.

I think a lot of Irish people are unaware that we have self ID here. Anyone I say it to is genuinely shocked. I suppose we don't have women-only anything as a result. It's very frightening.

Of course it’s misleading, as to all rational people ‘women’ = human females. But Ireland has made it law that everybody must pretend that males can be women, and that gender-feels are more important than sex. Meanwhile, the vast majority of shoppers at Penny’s will be thinking that ‘gender’ is a polite euphemism for ‘sex’, and undressed women or girls who get a nasty shock when a man ‘accidentally’ barges into their cubicle, or wanders out in a bikini to ask the shop assistant to get him a different size, will find that they are bigoted criminals if they complain.

This is the situation in Ireland, NZ, Australia, Canada, probably most of the EU and many states of the USA. The UK is an outlier in holding the line just in time before this was steam rolled through. You had time, resources and JKR to help rally enough of you. And a robust legal system that truly could withstand ideological capture. Unlike the rest of us. The UK has proven itself to be the strongest liberal democracy in the West through this issue. And the only one with systems capable of challenging attacks on the freedom, safety and dignity of vulnerable groups - women and girls in this case.

Only through the determination of a small group of women, who had to take the government to court repeatedly!

My local Pennys introduced mixed changing rooms but lost so many sales, and had so many complaints, they re-introduced men and women changing rooms. A majority of people I knew who complained said their teenage daughters were uncomfortable using the changing rooms as they didn't want to see boys / men when they were trying on outfits. From what I heard, none of the complaints were about transwomen. It was largely about lack of dignity, seeing men when trying to get changed and feeling vulnerable etc.

In this case, the complaints, combined with the downturn of revenue, worked as women were the majority of the customers during the week.

I'm still trying to get a handle on where to find help and how I can stay informed and active about this issue in Ireland. I found The Countess website a very good source of information. Might be of interest to some people.
thecountess.ie

'The Countess is a non-profit, volunteer-led organisation formed to promote the rights and interests of women and children in Ireland.'

'The Countess was initially established in 2019 to focus attention on the conflict of rights and child safeguarding issues emerging from the self-ID approach to gender recognition introduced through the Gender Recognition Act 2015.
In the 2015 Gender Recognition Act, the “medical model” was rescinded in favour of the “self-ID model”. The 2015 Act changed the medical requirement to a simple declaration of one’s own sincere intention to live as the opposite gender. There is no requirement to be assessed, and one can simply apply for a Gender Recognition Certificate online to be legally recognised as the opposite sex. This process is known as “self-identification”, or self-ID.
This seismic change in Irish law, with its far-reaching implications for women and children’s rights and protections on the basis of sex, was quietly signed into law in July 2015, two months after the Marriage Equality Referendum.
We promote constructive, respectful, and rights-focused dialogue on this issue, and wish to see a balanced approach to gender recognition that will,

• Vindicate the rights of women and restore single sex provision,
• Achieve best practice in safeguarding for children and young people, and
• Defend the hard-won rights of same sex attracted people to love who they love.'

Yes, the UK women are AMAZING and the rest of us stand in awe of what you have achieved. There does seem to be something about your system/culture though that sets you apart in how this has played out. I always suspected that despite its ‘women’s lib’ front, Germanic and Calvinist influenced cultures have a deep, pernicious misogyny that rears its head in unusual ways. And the Catholic countries are trying desperately to atone for their guilt on the child abuse and LGB persecution issues, which made them vulnerable to TRA somehow. Australia and NZ are always madly keen to be seen to be ‘fashionable’ and ‘hip’ by the ‘old world’ so our elites are always desperately jumping on whatever bandwagon deemed necessary for this. But the UK? You little beauties! You are staring TRA straight in the eye and refusing to give way. Bloody awesome.

But they won. In Australia and NZ it is already legal for a TiM to enter women's spaces, no all-female (or all-male, presumably) assemblies are allowed, Lesbian culture (and gay male culture?) has been destroyed. We have managed to miss this disaster - just about - because although slightly captured we did not get self-ID on the statute book by some miracle, or rather, heavy lobbying against it by women's groups who insisted on being heard. And self-ID did not get under the radar despite the capture of the media, whereas in e.g. Ireland it tagged along under a gay marriage bill. How on earth have we been so lucky in having women who managed to clock what was going on and challenge it?

Yes it is lawful unless the male has a GRC (aprox 500 males) as Ireland has no PC of transgender

(With the problem that the staff are not going to ask for it)

https://revisedacts.lawreform.ie/eli/2000/act/8/section/3/revised/en/html

(2) As between any two persons, the discriminatory grounds (and the descriptions of those grounds for the purposes of this Act) are:

(a) that one is male and the other is female (the “gender ground”),

https://revisedacts.lawreform.ie/eli/2000/act/8/section/5/revised/en/html

Discrimination And Related Activities

Disposal of goods and provision of services.
5.—(1) A person shall not discriminate in disposing of goods to the public generally or a section of the public or in providing a service, whether the disposal or provision is for consideration or otherwise and whether the service provided can be availed of only by a section of the public.

(2) Subsection (1) does not apply in respect of—

(g) differences in the treatment of persons on the gender ground where embarrassment or infringement of privacy can reasonably be expected to result from the presence of a person of another gender,

At last we have something to feel proud about #terfisland

And thank God for them (you). Like most posters here, I imagine, I look at what is happening in countries like Ireland and Germany in horror.

I was very disappointed in Penneys a couple of years ago, but pleasantly surprised to see they have changed policy. I took a photo of the current situation this summer in Penneys Cork City main street. The sign now says:

These fitting rooms
are for
Women only.

We also have
Any Gender
fitting rooms
available for
everyone
- please ask

I've written the above exactly as the sign was, it's a very large sign. Clearly women were pissed off and Penneys have now solved the 'male' problem by putting them all in with the men ! Though I forgot to go check out the men's !! Maybe they have a third special rooms for the laydees. I very much doubt though that women thinking they are men go into the men's, and they won't get much validation by the hassle of having to ask a staff member to bring them to the 'any gender' room as it will allow both men and women.

But it's not true - if a man has a GRC in Ireland, then they can go into the women's - there's no carve out.

And most people don't know that.

And if someone tried to stop the bloke going in, they would be the ones in trouble.

One factor may be the Ex CEO resigned after a sexual harrassment investigation so a clean up of the image is rolling down from the new CEO.

Plus primarks mixed sex fittingrooms were being featured in a lot of newspaper reports of non-contact sex offending using phones etc. Adding when the offenders end up also having CSA images charges it is not a big PR issue to make the mens mixed sex.

It's progress, and woe betide the man trying it on in that changing room. Until this mess is sorted I'm taking this as a win. Step by step to get this madness gone. Penneys has clearly reacted to complaints. Here is the sign I saw in Penneys in Waterford in May 2023:

We offer
Women only
and
Any Gender
fitting rooms here.

Then there was another sign:
ANY GENDER
FITTING
ROOMS

So in Cork you have to specifically ask now.

Primark is Penneys - for the UK women reading on here. In Ireland Primark is called Penneys, it's original name, but due to the American company JC Penny they went with Primark everywhere else.

When I visit Ireland (I live abroad, not UK) I take photos of signs to discuss with a GC friend of mine etc. Was in Hayfield Manor Hotel in Cork city and they solved the 'problem' by adding this to the disabled sign:

Disabled sign of a wheelchair symbol.

Followed by:

ALL GENDER
RESTROOM (and symbol of the man/women icon)

I see that more and more. It was something similar in the Ashling Hotel in Dublin city. The worst was I went into a McDonalds in France to go to the toilets and it was carnage with a mixture. That was a couple of years ago now.

It would be a long shot that the man has a GRC and it can be down to how staff are trained.

If the staff act in good faith it will fall to how good the lawers are for Pennys as men can be excluded. I am guessing they would not be prepared to run the case up to the SC for a ruling on if the word sex was about biology or paperwork.

(2) Subsection (1) does not apply in respect of—
(g) differences in the treatment of persons on the gender [male/female] ground where embarrassment or infringement of privacy can reasonably be expected to result from the presence of a person of another gender [male/female],

What the Irish branches should do is add a passport or driving licence requirement in small print 😉

Or just instruct the staff member to close the fitting rooms and direct all customers to the all gender

This is a problem as it puts able bodies into provision for people who need the space and mobility aids.

Its not suprising as the women toilet has always been a shared space with a disability toilet (and baby change) if there are 2 units and the mens unit has been the small one.

This has been the case for a while now.
But the women only dressing rooms aren't really women only. They allow trans women in.
Penny's have clarified that their changing rooms are based on gender identity not sex.
Also,as said up thread,any man can claim to be a trans woman. A big burly man with a beard and presenting in male clothing, can access the woman's changing room.
It's illegal to ask to see their GRC. So there is no way of knowing.
The joys of Self ID

As it happens my hubby uses the disabled and I have to help him. As a woman I'm glad the solution is the make the disabled available for trans people because it solves an issue I'd have with men in women's toilets. So far I've never seen a trans use them.

Going forward buildings can be purpose built to solve the issue, which of course means there will be all gender toilets that nobody will use. But for existing building they don't have the space to adapt so I'm comfortable with this.

As a woman who has to help her husband I cannot tell you the amount of times the disabled is locked or it's located right down the back of the men's or ladies. At a main train station in Ireland last month I had to go to the ticket desk to inform them the disabled was locked, she told me it wasn't, that someone was in there. So I managed to spot a cleaning lady and asked her, she told me it was indeed locked. And then unlocked it for us.

Why would any trans person need to be so difficult about it? An all gender changing room is fine, surely.

It validating their womanhood.