Is it safety or separation?

[OneFlakyMaker]

When opposing transgender people in women's spaces, are you looking for safe spaces or separate spaces?

They may overlap but are not the same thing, and while a lot of the discussion is focused on safety, the tone and some arguments hint that addressing safety won't be enough for many people to feel comfortable. Instead, a place without males is sought.

I read one woman described it "At the club we used the women's bathroom to get a break from interacting with men".

So the list of what is to be used to categorise who accesses single sex spaces is:

behaviour
cultural elements
personality traits
individualism
inclination (or motivation)

We are not to use body formation around reproductive function.

And due to Social Responsibility no female single sex spaces should exist because then male people will not know how to act with respect towards female people.

Did anyone at least pick up that apparently we now have the concession that we CAN have single sex provisions that exclude all male people above about 8 years old if safety is involved? How kind is that?? Maybe that is what super feminine people allow?

Just skimmed your post as have an appointment, so hope I’ve understood - will reread later. Heck yes, No is a complete sentence. No agreement of, heaven forfend, permission(!) needed. But a better understanding - a better capacity to understand, even, in many cases - would save us a lot of time, effort and worry.

Sorry - fast-moving. Reply to Education.

They don't really think you are a woman at all

So true. Transwoman friend tells me the school gate mums all confide in him more now. Really? When we're out and about service providers all treat him with the sort of sycophancy I've never experienced as a woman. I suspect the same is happening in his personal life.

The fawning over male people who declare they are female is an observable thing.

I have another: a Judge. Some men who have assaulted women have been told they are not allowed to enter women’s toilets because that’s where the assault took place.

Yeah, well we all know that unless paedophiles are given access to children, their paedophilia will get worse.

It's one of the more enraging parts of all this

I see the sycophancy as a fawn response - part of the fight, flight, freeze, fawn suite. Which means i have a little more sympathy for women who display it.

I unfortunately know more about this subject than I ever wanted to after researching toilet safety. It makes me feel sick just listing the reports as evidence to reach a conclusion about toilet design.

It is absolutely clear that young children should go into the toilet of the sex of their carer.

It is also absolutely clear that a ‘reason’ for toilets to be unisex should not be so that a male can be afforded more privacy with a girl than a boy. All perpetrators on my list are male. Most in real life won’t even be on my list as to get on it the child has had to tell someone in time for the man to be caught, found guilty and it be published so I can find it. I have also reached a point where I don’t need to add more reports. There’s a clear pattern in design. It doesn’t matter how public the toilets are or where they are, it’s just how private the cubicle is.

Single sex cubicles with door gaps are best for safeguarding - they prevent assaults taking place.

It doesn’t matter how public the toilets are or where they are, it’s just how private the cubicle is.

Bears repeating.

“Please explain why women seek the company of women other than for safety? Why the desire if their discussions aren't any different from men's? Because their conversations only ever limited to their 'biological realities'?”

This is a really remarkable question when you consider it.

That female people might want to join a group that excludes men so that they can have conversations about their lives with others who are of the same sex and may have a perspective on an issue also coming from a female perspective seems to an issue to some people.

The topics might be exactly the same as discussions with male people, but often there is a perspective relating to the experience of having a female body that creates a difference. Or there may be no difference at all! The discussion is just part of the discovery process of gaining in-depth understanding about the topic.

Yet, this perspective is impenetrable to some people.

Apparently, negotiating life and societal reactions to having a female body doesn’t create enough commonality with other female person to influence discussion. And male people might have the same opinion too so why are female people excluding those male people?

Notice again the absolutism in the ‘only ever limited’ phrasing. These questions had no relevancy to the post that they had been post in reply to either. Which was :

“What psychological, behavioural & cultural commonalities do women share again?”

“And what psychological, behavioural & cultural commonalities do women have with male people with the philosophical belief that they are not the sex they materially are that women don't also have with male people?”

What is the relevance of coming back with a question about why some women want to meet up together without men ?

I think that we really are seeing the incoherency now just crumble in these arguments for why any male person should be accessing any female single sex provision.

All I see now when I see these posts, is a male person raging that female people dare to exclude him from accessing any single sex provision he has an inclination to access.

Women, how dare you exclude male people who insist they should have access to your conversations? Surely there can be no commonality based on living life as a female person to explore other female perspectives on issues!! Remember, if you don’t include those male people who want access, then they will treat you with disrespect because you didn’t spend every opportunity you had with them. It is all your fault, women!

Thank you.

thank you.

Thank you.

Don’t forget.

Wanting separate spaces means it’s your fault when you’re violently raped, both vaginally and orally, when you’re strangled so hard you pass out and piss yourself, and when you are infected with hpv and genital herpes.

Taztoy I am so sorry.

Oh yes @Howseitgoin do please explain this for us all.

I’m waiting @Howseitgoin

I think the misogyny that we have seen rolled out on this and other threads is actually a very demonstration as to why female people might need female single sex spaces.

But still wheedling and attempts to rationalise keep coming.

The answer is still ‘no’.

Exactly. And that is the answer I will give to every single one of the knuckle daggers posts.

That’s another feature of the kind of discussions I describe - not “hearing” the voices or ideas with which they feel unable to “win” the point, Taztoy. Men and women both, but again, anecdotally, I’ve definitely experienced it rather more with men. I think there may be research into male-female dynamics in mixed meetings supporting that perception, too. Regardless, all these behaviours, man or woman, often seem to function as a kind of self-protective wilful blindness - ego-shielding blinkers. Avoidance behaviours, maybe. Can’t see/hear = can’t (be seen to) fail.

Just quoting this because made me so angry.

This post is rape apology in action. Out. Proud. And standing.

It’s not the act but the inclination that matters.

So it doesn’t matter that I told him no. That I screamed. That I fought him so hard I’ve scars on my fingers and his dna was under my nails.

it’s his inclination that matters.

Hmm.

You know what? It's none of your business. Women just want, sometimes, to be exclusively in the company of women, and exactly the same thing is true for other groupings, eg men, lesbians, co-religionists, old people, etc etc. Our law has gone to the trouble of making sure that following this universal, harmless human desire, to be with one's own kind, does not break anti-discrimination law (notably, clubs based on skin colour are not allowed). You are the one who is out of step with the rest of humanity on this, so you need to bring the justification.

It doesn’t matter that he physically raped me.

It is his inclination that matters.

Fuck that.

Its interesting how many instructions our super feminine bro includes in their posts. The amount of 'listen' and similar directives is enlightening