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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is it safety or separation?

660 replies

OneFlakyMaker · 20/09/2025 05:54

When opposing transgender people in women's spaces, are you looking for safe spaces or separate spaces?

They may overlap but are not the same thing, and while a lot of the discussion is focused on safety, the tone and some arguments hint that addressing safety won't be enough for many people to feel comfortable. Instead, a place without males is sought.

I read one woman described it "At the club we used the women's bathroom to get a break from interacting with men".

OP posts:
MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/09/2025 10:35

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

We've engaged with the question.

The answer to the question is that it doesn't fucking matter.

It doesn't matter whether women are saying no because they're concerned about their safety, or because they don't want trans identifying men to find out about the pillow fights we have in our underwear in supermarkets toilets when they're not present, or because we're horrible transphobic exclusionary meanies.

The only thing that matters is that the answer is no. We don't want to share our SINGLE SEX spaces with any members of the OPPOSITE SEX.

Howseitgoin · 22/09/2025 10:36

Shortshriftandlethal · 22/09/2025 10:10

Most people acknowledge there are generalised differences between the sexes at the level of behaviour and psychology...but that is besides the point.

The point is that sex based differences are rooted in, and reflected in, the body and its biological functions. The reason we have single sex spaces is to acknowledge and respect that these differences put the female sex in a compromised and vulnerable position in relation to males; in certain and specific types of situation in which the body and its functions are highlighted or centred.

Males are generally the more predatory and sexually driven of the two sexes; displaying more paraphillias and fetishes, including voyeurism.

Edited

It might be "besides the point" to competing rights like sports & private spaces but its certainly not besides the point in terms of the legitimacy of trans people existence.

That some can't bring themselves to acknowledge these two separate issues gives credence to suspicion on what the real problem is.

Justwrong68 · 22/09/2025 10:36

Not sure what you’re driving at exactly. Maybe look up “urinary leash”. If you’re imagining discounting male violence, I would say that most women would still prefer spaces away from the male gaze.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/09/2025 10:36

Howseitgoin · 22/09/2025 10:30

So you won't answer the question. Its inconvenient isn't it?

Just remember, omission is as good as lying….

Here's a suggestion. Perhaps @FlirtsWithRhinos could agree to answer your question after you've answered my question about what commonality you think men like Karen White and Sarah Jane Baker have with women.

Taztoy · 22/09/2025 10:36

Howseitgoin · 22/09/2025 10:30

So you won't answer the question. Its inconvenient isn't it?

Just remember, omission is as good as lying….

I answered you.

You have ignored me. Again.

RedToothBrush · 22/09/2025 10:36

On a practical level it is IMPOSSIBLE to legislate in a way that protects women and girls and includes the indefinable quality of males who believe they are women.

All legal definitions need to be definable by third neutral parties.

This can not be based on what people wear or the adornments they wear, because there are times where the presence of a naked penis is precisely the problem.

We can go round and round forever on this, but ultimately it comes back to this point.

In law we CAN NOT legislate that a man is whatever he says he is and impose his identity on a collective of women, but women can not define their own identity and their collective identity and claim it's equality. Why? Because it's sexist. It is that simple.

If we believe in equality, and this is the stick we are beaten with to enable this shit, then this is a total oxymoron. It is not compatible with this principle.

If we believe in fairness before the law, then we have to have observable definitions that are neutral and a third party can reference and draw from in order to judge the situation without prejudice. The idea that a man can just say he's a woman but a woman can not go 'thats a man because I can objectively observe he's a man' is a total legal nonsense.

Again in all these arguments about how it's unfair to transwomen and how very dare we speak this, we never ever get past the practicality of this.

Instead now we are getting this push back against single sex provision from people who don't like this saying the law is not workable! The irony is palpable. It IS workable, they just don't want to observe it or challenge where appropriate because they get the whiney screams of those who don't like it and don't want to respect the opposite sex and principles of consent.

Honestly, if you don't want to observe the law campaign properly to change it, but keep on mind you have to come up with some none sexist legal definitions which fit with existing laws on sexual harassment and voyeurism. You know this practical legal stuff, rather than rabbiting meaningless word salad that collapses at the slightest attempt to poke it with practical real world test cases - you know those bloody awkward ones where creeps and pervs seek to find loopholes in the system to exploit. The law is the vanguard against these people first - you can't just ignore them and pretend they don't exist because they don't fit your narrative or your stereotypes! You can't disavow them as not being 'proper' because it doesn't suit you agenda!

You have to come up with a practical argument that offers women protections that are as good or better than single single provisions, rather than saying that there is an acceptable level of collateral damage of women to benefit men, otherwise that's against the human rights of women and is a role back on their existing rights.

Males who say they are female still have rights and protections. But that has to be balanced with the rights and protections of women. It is not for women to sacrifice themselves to accommodate males at their own expense.

TRAs never ever get past this point, to be able to start a meaningful debate that is in the interests of women to indulge.

Come back solutions to these practical level issues and we'll talk. Until then.

Tough shit.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/09/2025 10:37

Howseitgoin · 22/09/2025 10:36

It might be "besides the point" to competing rights like sports & private spaces but its certainly not besides the point in terms of the legitimacy of trans people existence.

That some can't bring themselves to acknowledge these two separate issues gives credence to suspicion on what the real problem is.

Trans people's existence is as legitimate as everyone else's.

Their claim to be the opposite sex is not. It's a lie.

Howseitgoin · 22/09/2025 10:38

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/09/2025 10:36

Here's a suggestion. Perhaps @FlirtsWithRhinos could agree to answer your question after you've answered my question about what commonality you think men like Karen White and Sarah Jane Baker have with women.

I don't know them personally so how would I know?

Taztoy · 22/09/2025 10:39

Howseitgoin · 22/09/2025 10:36

It might be "besides the point" to competing rights like sports & private spaces but its certainly not besides the point in terms of the legitimacy of trans people existence.

That some can't bring themselves to acknowledge these two separate issues gives credence to suspicion on what the real problem is.

I have never said that trans individuals do not exist. They do. But the definition of what they are (trans individuals) does not mean that they are anything other than their natal sex.

They are still not entitled to enter the single sex spaces of the opposite sex.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/09/2025 10:40

Howseitgoin · 22/09/2025 10:38

I don't know them personally so how would I know?

They're male and they exhibit stereotypically male behaviours. Karen White has been convicted of a crime only men can commit. You can Google them both.

What do they have in common with women, please?

RedToothBrush · 22/09/2025 10:41

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/09/2025 10:32

Nope. I have no commonality whatsoever with trans identifying men.

I have less commonality with them than I do with other men, in fact.

Yes I'm still scratching my head at this commonality argument.

Saying that males are females isn't remotely a common interest for my rights as a female on any level.

I'd like a proper explanation of why it's in my own interests to allow men access to women's spaces.

There is zero commonality.

Helleofabore · 22/09/2025 10:41

I think it became clear that the OP is not engaging rather than the posters did not engage with this thread.

I guess if you want to believe that the OP was genuine and was considering the answers, you can believe that. I don’t think a reasonable person would see it that way considering the only other response from the OP was a rather disjointed post that didn’t really show much understanding of the replies at all.

Justwrong68 · 22/09/2025 10:41

LoftyRobin · 20/09/2025 08:00

Why? Haven't women hurt you?

This old ruse? Women experience sexual harassment from men constantly, not from women

Howseitgoin · 22/09/2025 10:43

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/09/2025 10:37

Trans people's existence is as legitimate as everyone else's.

Their claim to be the opposite sex is not. It's a lie.

Um, if it's a "lie" then existence is not legitimate….

But thanks for your opinion….

Taztoy · 22/09/2025 10:44

I say no to men in women’s single sex spaces.

That no is supported by the law. The law says men are not allowed into women’s single sex spaces (in the U.K. where I am and where this website is based).

If the “no” in this case (the legal no as affirmed by the Supreme Court) is not respected, then all laws are under threat.

Why do some men have such a problem with the word no? Do they not understand the law on consent? Do they think my no in the case of my rape is also not worthy of respect?

Howseitgoin · 22/09/2025 10:45

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/09/2025 10:40

They're male and they exhibit stereotypically male behaviours. Karen White has been convicted of a crime only men can commit. You can Google them both.

What do they have in common with women, please?

They might have other qualities or characteristics that women on average have or they might be insane how would I know?

RedToothBrush · 22/09/2025 10:46

Howseitgoin · 22/09/2025 10:43

Um, if it's a "lie" then existence is not legitimate….

But thanks for your opinion….

Sex is not gender mate.

So when we are talking about single sex provision and gender reassignment, if you suggest that gender reassignment means you have changed your sex then yes you are a liar and it's a lie.

HTH.

Btw, this isn't my opinion nor MissScarletInTheBallroom's opinion.

It's observable and it's the law.

Sorry (not sorry). Try harder with your gotchas.

Taztoy · 22/09/2025 10:47

Howseitgoin · 22/09/2025 10:43

Um, if it's a "lie" then existence is not legitimate….

But thanks for your opinion….

People who believe they have a feeling that they are the opposite sex exist.

The physical reality however is that they are not and never will be the opposite sex as defined in law.

They are a subset of their own sex, trans men or trans women.

They can present as the opposite sex if they wish, wear what they like, have whatever interests and hobbies they want, and their right to do that should be and is protected in law but they are not and never will be actually the opposite sex.

TheKeatingFive · 22/09/2025 10:49

Howseitgoin · 22/09/2025 10:45

They might have other qualities or characteristics that women on average have or they might be insane how would I know?

What qualities do women have in common with trans identified men that they don't have in common with other men?

Helleofabore · 22/09/2025 10:52

I am not quite up with this particular interaction. Has any further proof been offered about these supposed ‘commonalities’ of personality etc?

Or are we still grinding away with the same discussion where a male person can be considered female because of the way he behaves.

Taztoy · 22/09/2025 10:53

Helleofabore · 22/09/2025 10:52

I am not quite up with this particular interaction. Has any further proof been offered about these supposed ‘commonalities’ of personality etc?

Or are we still grinding away with the same discussion where a male person can be considered female because of the way he behaves.

Yip feelings and behaviour.

nothing to do with the actual law.

Howseitgoin · 22/09/2025 10:56

Helleofabore · 22/09/2025 10:41

I think it became clear that the OP is not engaging rather than the posters did not engage with this thread.

I guess if you want to believe that the OP was genuine and was considering the answers, you can believe that. I don’t think a reasonable person would see it that way considering the only other response from the OP was a rather disjointed post that didn’t really show much understanding of the replies at all.

Look, they were definitely 'fishing' & fishing on MN for a reason as in taking the GC temperature on sepratism which is well studied social concern & not just for sex. I even suspect that facebook thread was by the same people because essentially its a question about the same topic. But big deal. Why not just say 'no, relax, that's not the purpose here' or 'what do you expect if sexual violence is so rampant' as i did instead of being so weirdly conspiratorially hostile.

Push back rationally for the sake of your own cause FFS!

RedToothBrush · 22/09/2025 10:57

We've just got back to this question of 'what is a woman?' and 'how do we know that women are not transwomen?' haven't we?

"I identify as a transwoman and I demand all the rights and protections transwomen seem to claim. Therefore I get to shout transphobia at everything I don't like and everyone who disagrees with me. Anyone dissenting is hateful and I will report them to the police. If the police refuse to do anything I will threaten them with a judicial review."

"What do you mean, you can't be a transwoman? Why can't I be a transwoman? Transwomen are just like every other woman."

Well aren't they?

How can I define who is a transwoman and who is just a bog standard woman. We are whatever we say we are and I say I'm a transwoman and you can't do anything about that because...

...oh wait, the equality act has definitions which protect transwomen and stop me from doing this based on (checks notes) sex not gender identity.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 22/09/2025 10:59

Howseitgoin · 22/09/2025 10:30

So you won't answer the question. Its inconvenient isn't it?

Just remember, omission is as good as lying….

You know what is also lying? Lying.

I have answered the question. Multiple times. Were there too many long words? Too much careful nuance?

I'll try again with bullets.

There are noticeable differences in behaviour at the population level between the group of male people and the group of female people

These overlap such that some male people have some behaviours culturally associated with female people and vice versa.

Some men want to change the definition of "woman" from simple sex to "people who share female associated commonalities of behaviour"

However, these "commonalities" as you call them are not a more meaningful way to think about "men" and "women" than simple body sex for several reasons:

Female biology still exists and has a material impact of women's lives

The social construction around the female body and how both men and women are socialised to think about ot react to it also has a material impact on women's lives.

The history of women's disempowerment and marginalisation is important for understanding women (original sex based meaning)'s social, economic, domestic and political position today.

Notably, the men who wish to define womanhood by behavioural "commonalities" rather than sex very notably feel it entirely proper that it is they, and not women ourselves, who get to define which "commonalities" are significant, often on an individual basis. Women's own experiences of womanhood and our opinions on whether we consider these "commonalities" to be the significant ones are neither sought nor considered relevant when given.

Therefore for women in particular, replacing social, cultural and political recognition of our sex under the word "woman" with a self identified "commonality" based on the intersection of (possibly) biological differences of behaviour and entirely culturally imposed ideas of "womanhood" is unacceptable because it takes out of our story the most significant causes of risk and disadvantage, and reifies cultural myths that disadvantage and disempower us.

Oh yeah, it's also problematic because it justifies letting men who want to perve on us insist we can naked with them.

Howseitgoin · 22/09/2025 11:00

TheKeatingFive · 22/09/2025 10:49

What qualities do women have in common with trans identified men that they don't have in common with other men?

Well it stands to reason some male bodied individual outliers won't be like the average man in terms of behaviour, inclinations & interests but will with the average women.