Trans row threatens to overshadow Lib Dem conference

[IwantToRetire]

Sir Ed Davey faces activist revolt over party rules that allow biological men to take women’s posts

The current rules allow those who “self-identify as women” to stand for party posts set aside for women, which the activists say dilutes the chance that biological women can reach the top of the party.

The vote will be put before conference on Saturday, but it is understood that trans rights activists will try to get it cancelled to avoid embarrassment. This is despite a YouGov poll showing that three-quarters of Lib Dem members do not support the party’s stance on allowing gender self-ID.

Full article at https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2025/09/17/trans-row-threatens-to-overshadow-lib-dem-conference/

Also at https://archive.is/hykSr

The problem with using language such as “engaging brains”, “rational”, “daft” is that it is not actually engaging with the people who are disenfranchised and disillusioned with mainstream politics

Seriously!

So I have the responsibility to "engage" with people who would spit in my face.

That is the attitude that allowed this irrational response to a crisis to thrive.

Why aren't they engaging with those who have a different opinion.

This is what I mean by dumbing down.

Like Starmer arse licking Trump.

The problem is not dumbing down to those who want to play the victim and think maybe they are part of the problem by making sure there are parties worth voting for.

Dont forget Trump won because 8 million (or there abouts) people didn't vote Democrate who did previously. Trump hardly gained many votes last time. ie Trump didn't win. The Democrats lost.

Ditto the last election. Starmer got fewer votes than each of the times Corbyn stood. It was only because the Tory vote collapsed that Starmer is now our PM. Not that I wanted the Tories back by the way.

But to think we should start to think like those who are fed up and turn to Farage as a viable option.

So my question is why do we have to pander to them.

If they dont understand the situation, and fall for quick fixes like "oven ready" solutions, the UK will continue to go down hill.

It would be better that nobody voted then people who think the last lot ignored me so I'll turn to the other lot, and put into power someone who will, if anyone will, totally undermine British values.

Treating voters as immature school children, stamping their feet going I want, I need and not realising that our standard of living will go on going down hill, because the one we used to have was largely bolstered by having the benefits of colonies that gave us access to resources we now cant afford to buy in the world wide market.

Thatchers free market economy has shown we cant.

But everyone is still thinking somehow the UK as an old economy will be able to match the growth of the new economies.

We cant.

Why aren't they engaging with those who have a different opinion.

They have. No one listened. Go to any “left-behind” area (eg many coastal towns in East Lincolnshire or Cumbria for example) and hear the voters say they have listened to the promises of both Labour and conservatives and neither party has done anything meaningful for them for decades. They feel that have absolutely nothing to lose and possibly something to gain by voting for Reform, because Farage isn’t politically correct and “says it straight”.

Listening to these people doesn’t mean you have to agree with them, but as their votes count just as much as yours or mine surely they deserve the basic courtesy of hearing why they vote the way they do if the question is asked?

Listening to them doesn't even mean what they say is real though.
Brexiteers thought that Farmers would be fine, they believed the bus, they bought into what Farage was selling. It didn't come to fruition and they still believe him! There's no reasoning with people who don't have the same goal posts for all parties. They'd happily go on about LD and the tuition fee, Tony Blair and Iraq and Tories and...well they usually vote for them, but they won't think Farage and lies on a bus or tax evasion or handgun law changes. They hear what they want to so it is literally pointless listening when it's in essence mumbo-jumbo.

They hear what they want to so it is literally pointless listening when it's in essence mumbo-jumbo.

Mmmhmm. You do realise that’s exactly what Reform voters say about Labour, Conservative and the LibDrms?

I'm sure. Doesn't make it right.
I'd rather read last year's paper than argue with a pigeon.

I'd agree.

We're talking a tranche of the voting population that has been looked down on and despised by the political class since Gordon Brown made his comment about 'horrible racist woman' (or whatever it was he said) in the back of the car when his mink hadn't been turned off. The woman, iirc, had asked a reasonable question.

They're used to being thought stupid. And - newsflash - they are very capable of despising their 'betters' and thinking them stupid too. I was putting up a gazebo once with a builder and a gamekeeper/general labourer/ village handyman (the sort of bloke you phone when a tree has come down and trapped your horse in its stable, because he will have both a chainsaw and the capacity to reassure the horse). I was quietly doing what I was told, and they were comparing notes about some super-educated highly-paid office workers who had once totally and utterly mangled the putting up of said gazebo 'Coz they int got no common sense, they don't do nothing with their hands'.

I have no idea how either of them votes - the gamekeeper loathed the local Tory MP - but anyone who decries them for being uninformed, irrational and stupid is asking to be quietly looked at, and then they'll just walk off, 'I din't say nuthen to the stupid bastard, he int worth moi toime...'

These are the sort of blokes who will be able to handle the end of civilisation. They know it. The political class (whatever that is) doesn't.

They're not stupid. Under-educated, possibly, but in many ways astute and sensible. They might well consider Farage a grifter and an idiot, and still vote for him to stick one in the eye of the know-alls who have ignored them these last 30 years.

It's not so much that Farage will win. It's that the mainstream parties will lose.

They're not stupid. Under-educated, possibly, but in many ways astute and sensible. They might well consider Farage a grifter and an idiot, and still vote for him to stick one in the eye of the know-alls who have ignored them these last 30 years.

It's not so much that Farage will win. It's that the mainstream parties will lose.

Agreed that is how I basically look at it. There is NO way to win these voters back by insulting them.

Brexit it hasn't worked out economically as many predicted. However it totally worked politically. It happened Brexit voters won and there is little prospect of us returning. The fact that Leave voters crushed it last time and changed the political landscape means it is very wise politically to take account of what they think. Because every citizen in the UK gets to use their vote.

Even the Lib Dems are doing this to some degree as I pointed out earlier in the thread they are now wave a bunch of flags which again is catering to ordinary Brits but is very daring from their perspective, they are not willing to say if you go vote for us we will take you back into the EU via a referendum. They don't even have the basic courage of the Brexit party. Instead they are aiming to win disillusioned Tories and those scared of Farage. Moreover to get back to the centre point of this thread the Lib Dems continue to be happy to imply women don't exist because that is what "nice" people think.

On a basic level that is way stupider than leaving the EU.

Those pesky women are going to win sooner or later.

Liberal Voice for Women

LDConf and it's a wrap!

A brilliant weekend full of sisterhood and camaraderie, standing up for liberal ideals of equality and women's human rights.

Thanks to everyone - including our opponents - who contributed to making this such a successful conference for us.

Every attempt to hold us back makes us more determined. Every attempt to silence us alerts more people to the need for our work.

We are a growing movement. Become a part of it here:
^https://liberalvoiceforwomen.org/^

Join — Liberal Voice for Women

See you in York for Spring Conference 2026!

'They're not stupid. Under-educated, possibly, but in many ways astute and sensible. They might well consider Farage a grifter and an idiot, and still vote for him to stick one in the eye of the know-alls who have ignored them these last 30 years.'

Yes. Under educated if the emphasis is on academic achievement.

But I also think Reform vote is cutting through all sections of society, who are just tired of being lied to. And there is no more obvious lie than that transwomen are women.

I'll see if I can find some polling, be interesting to see.

https://www.moreincommon.org.uk/our-work/research/from-protest-to-power-inside-reform-uk-s-changing-support-base/

(No uni) education, media preference, and immigration are the three key features of Reform leaning voters.

Otherwise, they are reflective of the average UK population.

Farage is offering a concept of the future. The LD only offer an anti Farage idea. They are not controlling the narrative. Farage is. They are not representing a centrist alternative which is what many of the public want. They are further polarising British politics, which works more for Farage due to numbers and the disaffection vote.

John Curtis has already observed that this strategy is unlikely to pick up more votes - they have already hoovered much of the pro-Europe soft Tory vote. He thinks they need to offer more leftist economical interesting policies to the public to pick up more votes.

I think I'm in this boat tbh. As it stands I find the whole 'we are so anti Farage' stuff off putting rather than encouraging me to vote and I'm looking for an alternative positive'change' option for the future which isn't batshit and doesn't involve regressive policies and lies (like men magically transforming into women). I am pro-free speech so they just fucked that one good and proper too.

As a rule I've always been a pretty good bell weather in terms of voting and knowing how the vote will ultimately go. If I'm saying, this isn't hitting the mark there's a good chance they've screwed the pooch.

I'm unimpressed at the lazy, click bait attempt at getting attention by just saying Farage a hundred times. It's bullshit.

Regardless of what people here think, the political parties believe reform are popular with the electrate, and they are the ones talking to the 'undereducated' on the door.

Labour dont want their voters moving towards reform. So i think labour will take on more Reform type policies and ditch the woker ones, and let LD and greens concentrate on them.

I think LD are betting that the next election is going to be close, and either reform (with or without conservates) or labour/LD/green/SNP coalition. So it makes sense for LD to claim their main opposition is reform and let the electorate know what their conditions for the coalition would be. And at the same time attract labour voters who want the woker policies.

The ‘not being lied to’ is the bit I don’t get about support for Farage…he keeps on saying things that aren’t true! He keeps on making splashy claims about what he’ll do, which very shortly after turn out to be unworkable or gross exaggerations. Lying or incompetence?
We’ve already had the ‘stick it in the eye’ Brexit vote which made just about everything people complain about worse not better. Of course Farage can’t be held accountable for that because he buggered off and didn’t do anything to try to help sort out the inevitable messes so he can blame it on May and Johnson.

Another defining characteristic of those voting for Reform UK Party Limited is that there are 50% more males than females so in fact not at all reflective of the UK population.

Exactly! There is no point arguing with them because they don't listen.
You can observe but really these are the party loyalty bunch who used to always unthinkingly vote Tory. Pandering to them is dangerous and unlikely to work.

I think Davey is doing all he can and is genuinely scared that Trump is pushing into UK via Farage, as many of us are. The BBC seem to have only just enabled them a voice which is why he has had to mention Farage so many times but their policies are finally being reported on. I've seen more of theirs in the MSM this year than any year I remember since Ed took over. I think their policies seem further left than Labour. They've considered social care which is more realistic to help NHS.

Glad the women have a corner there but I do suspect that they'll be hacked by the trans activist group and details of members leaked, which ironically I can imaging putting a lot of people off openly signing up.

The thing is with Farage, he comes over as caring for that sector of the population which the mainstream parties ignore, mock or criticise. Imply that people who are likely to vote for him are racist, homophobic etc and a lot of them will be furious - because they really like the Asian bloke who runs the takeaway in the ex-pub, and the treasurer of the bowls club where they have played for years is gay and no one cares.

And the fact that the Brexit vote taught lot of politicians precisely nothing about the people who voted for it makes that section of the electorate want to stick it back in even harder next time.

And to pick up what @ArabellaSaurus said, 'Under educated if the emphasis is on academic achievement.' Well, precisely. Practical skills, an understanding of the landscape, common sense around animals: including an understanding of sex differences, which makes them particularly stony ground for the trans woo.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like Farage, but he is one hell of a political operator. Having seen Kier Starmer in the flesh (stiff, well-modulated, well-rehearsed) I can see why Farage does so well with the man-of-the-people schtick.

I think the problem is that although Farage proposes no workable solutions, it has become apparent that the solutions proposed by governments in the 1980s and 90s aren't working either, and it's not clear where new ideas are supposed to come from.

Privatising industry hasn't created any magic money, and in some cases has just contributed to decline.

International trade has not ended conflict and many people just feel more financially vulnerable because of competition. (Although they also don't want to experience the drop in living standards that would result from fewer foreign imports).

Everyone knows that we can't just keep importing workers from abroad to solve the problem of our ageing population, but nobody has come up with a feasible alternative.

Because Farage has no responsibility it is more easy for him to point out the problems, which creates the impression that he is a truth teller, and because he offers 'easy' solutions, it's more comfortable to listen to him.

Farage lies yes.

But what Farage does is identify a social problem (s) that other parties don't and he acknowledges it.

He then lies, twists and misrepresents that but he has picked up on a legitimate grievance or disaffection.

This makes him different.

The other parties pretend there isn't a problem, use spin to de-legitimise the complaint or smear the person making it by questioning their character or their behaviour.

I've mentioned this on the Charlotte Tetley thread.

We have departments and services fobing off people with problems to other services and departments because they aren't presented with the perfect case who ticks all the right boxes. And there's an over riding attitude of 'you aren't my problem'.

People like Charlotte Tetley and Sandie Peggie represent people who have more difficult lives or views which aren't middle class perfect and they come across attitudes which are almost Victorian like in their morality and how they are to blame for their own situation.

As I said my son is currently in an NHS Doom Loop where no one wants to take responsibility due to Trust Boundaries and not being able to work with neighbouring Trusts and it's utterly appalling. We are able to navigate it better than most and have put in a formal complaint because they don't know their arses from their elbows. For us it's a one off, but for some people this type of thing is daily life which frankly sends you insane with it's Kafkaesque ridiculousness and inhumanity.

If you are up against this daily, then the attraction of anyone acknowledging that - even if they are known for lying - can't be underestimated.

There is this growing sense that unless you grow up, go to university, get married, buy a house, have a professional job - or at least are in the process of aspiring to this, you've somehow failed at life and you should have tried harder / are to blame for you own failure. Unless you use all the right language, present in the right way or do all the right things you are a nuisance because you are being difficult somehow. Even if it's totally beyond your own control.

Farage deals with disaffection. That's his currency. The only way to stop Farage is to starve him of what he feeds on - public disaffection.

In other words acknowledge problem and offer reasonable solutions, stop blaming or smearing the public, improve access to services and facilities and offer an alternative positive solution.

When someone goes to A&E for something minor it's not because they are uneducated. It's because they don't have easy access to medical assistance because the GPs are making it difficult. People are prepared to wait for hours in the knowledge they will be eventually seen rather than fobbed off. Telling people not to attend A&E 'unless it's an emergency' does not deter this group - it neglects to acknowledge the problem and instead frame the public as stupid. It does, as an unintended consequence, deter the diligent elderly person who needs urgent care because they are afraid they are 'wasting the doctors time'. This is all easy to blame on immigration, rather than things like long term attempts to 'cut costs' by shortsightedly closing walk in services - which then end up costing more as people go to A&E instead.

It's a fundamental lack of understanding human behaviour and how you can't just stop certain behaviours which aren't 'perfect'. You have to create services which reflect real life and real world experiences.

The LDs are never going to get close to achieving this, when they literally have a male walking around telling people not to believe what they see with their own eyes. Transgenderism is the physical representation of the concept of this modern day middle class Victorian Morality in a nutshell. It can't coexist with this idea of 'listening to the ordinary public'.

The LDs just don't get it.

I agree with all of that @RedToothBrush
However I do still prefer the LD to any other option.
I am hopeful the Green party under BraMaster will hoover up the trans vote and do more to entice them away from LD in a public show boating way.

I do think it's a death knoll to any party to try to tackle the trans issue, just as it was to mention Brexit. The population affected is tiny but they are nasty and obsessive and turn the papers and police to their bidding with the smallest incentive.

Farage is an astute political operator who tells people what they want to hear. He's very weak on things like costing policies and explaining how they will work. He's up against parties who have not listened to their voters, only their activists, and are paying the price. The Libs benefit from the ABF vote but they want you to believe men can become women and that doesnt go down well with the majority of the British public. If politicians lie about something so basic what can you trust them with?

Our economy is not doing well and while Labour have tried to do something about that the question is whether it can deliver before the next election - and whether Starmer can hold out enough to see it through. The plan doesnt really address the inequalities in Britain obviously enough, they need some headline policies that are more obvious. Removing higher rate tax relief on pension contributions and pinching Reform's idea about not paying interest on bank deposits would be popular moves with the voters they need to attract.

If you want to keep reform out then on an individual level the best thing you can do is try to spend your money in a way that supports British jobs and the British economy. That's pretty difficult with more and more made in China.

He's up against parties who have not listened to their voters, only their activists, and are paying the price

i think that's such an important often overlooked point. The vast vast majority of ppl are not members of political parties or political activists. Many MPs spend far too much time having internal party conversations with ppl who already think like them rather than talking to those that don't. The problem is this that party political system rewards this. It's the ppl that spend time on the internal conversations that get true promotions & ministerial jobs. Good constituency MPs who spend their time with their local population understanding the issues very rarely get listened to by the party machine.

I keep saying this as it's very true of the trans issues in a nutshell

If you acknowledge a problem, you have to do something about it if you are in a position of authority. Otherwise you admit you are failing to do your job properly.

This is why scandals and whistleblowers have such a terrible time because there's too many people covering their own arse .

This is why you won't see people saying 'oh yes we got this wrong, yes there is a massive problem with harms from promoting this in schools and medicalising children or enabling abusers.

Because if they admit this they open themselves up to massive liabilities.

Farage isn't in the same position. He doesn't have these liability issues. He doesn't have responsibility.

He isn't to blame for existing issues.

As soon as Reform gets power it'll go to shit because they haven't got the solutions. Experiments with Farages sister parties in Europe have gone badly for exactly this reason. Farage also knows this, and his aim is to dismantle certain structures as quickly as possible for his own ends before the public realise the implications. His agenda is not the same as the one the public want.

It astonishes me that the other parties can't get to grips with this, because they are also so self invested.

Ultimately the public loses in every scenario and we are locked into a spiral of decline because no one wants to step up.

I think the public as a whole probably do actually recognise this but take the attitude 'well it can't get any worse' when unfortunately it very much can but no one is willing to.

In other words acknowledge problem and offer reasonable solutions, stop blaming or smearing the public, improve access to services and facilities and offer an alternative positive solution.

Unfortunately, I think part of the problem is that the country just doesn't have much money at the moment, so whichever way any government cuts their cloth, it's going to lead to dissatisfaction.

We would be in a better place without Brexit, but some of the problems that affect the UK are international (e.g. impact of Ukraine war on food prices), and also cause dissatisfaction in countries that on paper are doing better than us, so Farage can argue both that the problem isn't Brexit, and that we had the wrong Brexit.

It's not about cuts though. It's about wisely spending money rather than viewing it as cuts.

It's ridiculous. "We can't afford a walk-in centre" does not mean that you cut costs by closing the centre. You just shift a problem to a more expensive situation where more people use even more expensive A&E. It's not a cost cutting solution then - it's a service cutting solution that shoves the problem somewhere else with more acute problems and financial issues.

There isn't this thought process going on because we have closed ring fenced budgets responsible for certain things which are isolated from each other with no thought as to what then happens if that service is removed and the impact on other budgets.

'Cost cutting' mental health services so you can only get assessed over the phone and not in person means people don't end up in the system (autistic people are known to struggle with telephone assessments, leading to avoidance. Autistic people have higher rates of mental health problems in the first place so access should be thought about in these terms). If people present at crisis rather than earlier because you have had early intervention, it's much more expensive in the long run.

It's not like a household budget of buying things and they all work and this is the problem successive governments have made.

You cost cut by investing in services, even though it seems counter intuitive.

It represents a fundamental lack of understanding of how things work and is run off spreadsheets not an understanding of humanity.

Farage deals with disaffection. That's his currency. The only way to stop Farage is to starve him of what he feeds on - public disaffection.
In other words acknowledge problem and offer reasonable solutions, stop blaming or smearing the public, improve access to services and facilities and offer an alternative positive solution.

This