Gay men and surrogacy - the new “be kind”?

[Tootingbec]

Just seen a LinkedIn post from a gay man who is writing a book about the surrogacy “journey” he and his husband went through. Cue gushing comments about how amazing this is…..

It has really upset me. The sheer fucking privilege of gay men to buy babies and then be lauded and praised for it like they were super heroes. And untouchable to criticism due to blinkered “be kind” beliefs about the poor gay men who just want a family like heterosexual men.

Where do people think these babies come from? Do you think people delude themselves that all these gay men just have kind, altruistic female friends who happily have a baby for them? As opposed to exploiting vulnerable and desperate women in India, Mexico and the like.

I feel so angry - women are just fucked over and abused time and time again by men and it is all dressed up as progressive when it is the exact opposite.

When I was a younger women I loved having gay men in my social circle. They seemed like “nicer” more lovely men than most straight men. Now I realise that underneath it all they just the same sexist, privileged tossers as many straight men are. They want a baby? No problem - buy one! They want to invade women’s spaces? No problem - just reinvent yourself as “the most vulnerable in society”!

It’s like the scales have fallen from my eyes.

The idea of a woman having a baby and immediately handing that baby over to someone else for money is horrendous.

This should only happen when the risks to the baby are so serious that it can't be avoided or the woman wholeheartedly makes that choice in the best interest of the child.

This is absolutely exploitative.

You are considered an asshole in the pet world for removing puppies from their mum up until 8 weeks. But for a human it's ok? Cos a man said so?

Get to the far side of fuck off.

'Get to the far side of fuck off.'

This wasn't at you OP! Just got clarity I agree with you!

You just have to understand that all that really matters is what men want. That's it. That's all there is.

Surely this applies equally to any surrogacy arrangement not just gay men?

😂

What irritates me is that you seem to think that women have no agency and are simpletons, not able to make decisions about their own bodies.

I know there are absolutely cases where vulnerable women from very poor countries are used in these scenarios and feel they have no choice. But that's not the case for all and it seems you're suggesting that those who choose to go through surrogacy for purely financial or altruistic reasons are somehow not able to make their own decisions, like they're children who don't know what's good for them? Why do you feel sorry for them, like they've been tricked into something and don't understand what they're doing?

are somehow not able to make their own decisions

In this scenario, one of these decisions these free and able women are making, is to deliberately inflict separation trauma on a newborn baby.

Yes, there can be cases of genuine altruism, and genuine freedom of decision making, but ensuring these things to be true is very hard. What mechanism do you propose to put in place to make sure a woman isn’t being exploited?

And even if you can, there’s still a baby who has rights produced as a result. What about the baby?

Surrogacy should be illegal in my opinion.

It depends though, I don't know why your anger is only towards gay men when straight couples can do the same. I do think surrogacy should be legal but not able to be paid, so for example it is very difficult for me to conceive and carry a baby (more likely to be premature or miscarriage) - I don't ever what kids, so my infertility doesn't bother me (I know I'm lucky as for many women it's heartbreaking). But if my sisters wanted to carry a baby for me, I think that should be allowed, in fact they've always said they would. That's very different to a random person and paying them.

There's a case right now of a women who reported her surrogate to the FBI, is suing her as the baby was stillborn but that was slightly due to her placenta issues - the women's mother and mothers sister had all had placenta problems. As the egg the surrogate had was from the women, the placenta formed will have that dba and so she had those same issues. However the women never told the surrogate despite surrogates having to give all their medical info to the people choosing one. She had 2 surrogates at the same time, and the other one also had placenta problems, she did however have the baby but the surrogate had to have a hysterectomy at the same time. So that's a case where it's had long-term repercussions which are horrible. Also the 1st surrogate had a 7 year old son and the women sent a picture of the dead baby to him. Absolutely horrific on the whole.

@FakingItEasy in the vanishing small number of “altruistic” surrogacy arrangements that may be the case that the women are entering into with agency.

But the vast vast majority of surrogates are from countries like India, Mexico, Georgia, Nepal…They are doing it because they have no other viable way (or believe they have no other way) of supporting themselves financially. Ditto prostitution - sure a vanishing small number of women fit the “empowered happy hooker” trope but majority turn to prostitution out of desperation (or are forced into it by men).

And the ultimate test is how you would feel if your daughter (if you have one) or close female relative were to decide that her only option to financially survive was to become a surrogate I would hazard that you might view it differently

And surrogacy is not just about bodily autonomy and a women’s right to decide what she does with her body, it is also about what is in the best interest of the child.

I dislike surrogacy, but I don't think the assumption of a right to have children is limited to gay couples- there is the same 'be kind' attitude applies to straight couples who can't conceive or single women who wish to use a surrogate.

I don't have any statistics, but my recollection is that when people using surrogates were panicking about the situation in Ukraine, it was mostly straight couples. So I'd be surprised if the majority of surrogacy takes place to benefit gay men.

@TheLivelyViper my ire in this thread towards gay men and surrogacy is the fawning and celebration whenever a gay male couple buy a baby and the absolute unabashed male
privilege this represents.

I am 100% against commercial surrogacy and very very uneasy about “altruistic” surrogacy also - but I think women who use surrogates are judged differently to gay men. Female celebrities are seen as vain and entitled to use a surrogate where as Tom Daley or Elton John are clapped to the rooftops.

Why are you specifically making this about gay men though? Straight couples use surrogates too.

If your view is that surrogacy is exploitative, surely the worst examples are those where women (who should be more keenly aware of women's rights/issues/exploitation) pay for other women to birth their children so they don't "ruin" their own bodies through pregnancy and childbirth.

In your view, how should gay couples have a child?

It's aful no matter who does it. There is however an important element that related specifically to gay couples.

The main argument people will make about why it is fine for heterosexual couples is that it is just so mean to deny them a baby when they have fertility issues. A lot of people see through that though.

But when it comes to gay couples, people accuse those against surrogacy of being homophobic and that equality means that surrogacy must be an option. It becomes an equal rights debate.

A lot more people are fooled by that bs and others may not be fooled but are too scared of being declared homophobic to say anything.

@superbakedpotato I’m making this about gay men because of the points I made in my posts!

Yes I know women and heterosexual couples use surrogates. And I am very much against that.

But my post is about the specific issue of gay male couples using women’s bodies to have a baby and it being seen as progressive and heartwarming and somehow socially acceptable because it is gay men involved. Hence it being the new “be kind” - something that people have been conditioned to see as a good thing because “look at the lovely gay couple and their baby” as opposed to actually seeing it for what it is - male privilege to the extreme

A big majority of couples who use a surrogate are straight.

I guess you didn’t read the OPs post just above yours …you’ve proved her point re double standards.

Thank you @TempestTost - exactly my point!

Well not by exploiting women in poor countries for starters.

Adoption. Co-parenting with a female friend maybe? Both of which put the baby’s/child’s interests central and don’t involve exploitation

Child trafficking.

Would you apply the same logic to, for example, someone who wants to pay someone to donate part of their liver to them? It grows back, they’re an adult who can make their own decisions and has their own agency, they’ll be financially compensated. Plus they’d be saving a life.
I don’t mean this as any kind of trick question, I’m genuinely interested in whether you’d apply the same logic to buying organs (I chose liver because it grows back if you just donate a bit, and I’m talking about a commercial arrangement because obviously you can donate to a loved one already).

What nonsense. And what's worse, there is a definite undercurrent of homophobia running through your comments. Not sure why you're being so hostile to gay people.

Do you think that infertile straight couples should have to share their child with a fertile woman? Why should any couple, gay or straight, be forced into co-parenting just to have a child?

Adoption can be very difficult and isn't suitable for many people.

Thank goodness people like you don't get let anywhere near actual decision making.

I do agree with you and it’s clear that surrogacy has many issues for biological mother and baby. I don’t agree with it in the vast majority of cases
My only query about it all is that, fertility issues aside, gay men are the only
couples who cannot produce their own families naturally. Not many people seem to have the same concerns about babies born to lesbian couples, maybe via sperm donations. These children also live their lives with no knowledge of one of their biological parents. I know it is NOT the same thing but the question does bother me none the less.
Not quite sure what the answer is.

I'm not convinced the majority of people are "applauding" gay couples for having a baby through surrogacy. Maybe on LinkedIn, because no one wants to show an ounce of prejudice on a site where their boss and future employers can openly see it.

I think people are possibly less critical of gay couples for it because, lets be honest, their options for having a family are more limited.

I don't think surrogacy is inherently abhorrent - if I didn't have children of my own (as pregnancy and birth obviously comes with risk) I'd consider doing it for someone. I appreciate that it can be exploitative when it's women desperate for money pushed to doing it as a last resort, but imo that should be down to lawmakers to prevent, not desperate would be parents.