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NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #53

1000 replies

nauticant · 03/09/2025 22:53

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give more evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected].

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025

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59
Helleofabore · 05/09/2025 07:51

thewaythatyoudoit · 04/09/2025 20:02

With ref to the discussion in recent posts about the emotional reaction of KS to challenge in xx, I see that today the complainant in Graham Linehan's prosecution got into such a kerfuffle during his xx that he asked if he could go to the loo! What he seems to share with KS is prior unawareness of how throroughly a good legal team will review the evidence and that they will construct timelines with it. The fact that he would be faced with incontrovertible evidence of his own stalking and harrassment of TERFS and the thrill he got from frightening women seems not to have occurred to him - he'd contacted pals to come to court to watch, so now they've all seen his comeuppance

I was struck by this too.

The timeline of that young man’s harassment of women and other’s was clear and I don’t think that he was expecting it. He didn’t seem to twig that him acting in a way to gain access to women the way he did was incredible in showing his attitudes towards others.

Bannedontherun · 05/09/2025 08:17

@Helleofabore Is the Linehan case being reported in detail anywhere.

SternJoyousBeev2 · 05/09/2025 08:18

guinnessguzzler · 04/09/2025 09:05

And the doctoring of the 'contemporaneous' notes is so weird. If he'd just said, 'Well the first time anything happened was back in the August but I didn't note anything down at that point because I'm not a creepy stalker desperately looking to catch people out. However, as things progressed / more stuff happened I realised I needed to keep track so in October I started noting things and added my best recollection of the August events then' surely that would have been OK? I mean ultimately these are all Dr U's own notes, own recollection, own interpretation whenever they were made. Yes it would be fresh in his mind if making the notes immediately and I appreciate that could give it greater weight, but it still doesn't prove that what he says / thinks happened actually did. And instead now he's literally proved himself to be a liar. If you're patient, narcissists will eventually always out themselves. It's quite incredible that they manage to wreak so much havoc when you think about that.

I listened to Michael Foran’s take on the IT day witnesses. It was fascinating and gobsmacking in equal measure. I know MF isn’t neutral on this topic but his analysis was pretty damning if Upton.

Helleofabore · 05/09/2025 08:22

Bannedontherun · 05/09/2025 08:17

@Helleofabore Is the Linehan case being reported in detail anywhere.

I don't know. I just read Nick Wallis' tweets last night.

https://x.com/nickwallis/status/1963528916284440649?s=46&t=88gZvdSnTk70X8b2ZUPZtA

https://x.com/nickwallis/status/1963528916284440649?s=46&t=88gZvdSnTk70X8b2ZUPZtA

SternJoyousBeev2 · 05/09/2025 08:37

KTheGrey · 04/09/2025 12:27

But if they are trans men then any issues arising will be different in terms of safeguarding etc. This is one of the most extraordinary features of thinking about ‘the trans community’ - the idea that trans women and trans men have all issues in common.

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Or the others could have been non binary who still used correct sex changing rooms?

EsmeWeatherwaxHatpin · 05/09/2025 08:40

EsmeWeatherwaxHatpin · 05/09/2025 06:45

Can I take a slight detour to Darlington nurses. Do we know which tribunal will hear it. I’m in that neck of the woods and have a weeks leave still in my pocket. It’s been a while but I think there is a tribunal at North Shields. I’m guessing they might move it to Newcastle though if they expect a large following. It’s a bigger venue.

Ok. I’m back from school run and had time to look for myself and it IS at Newcastle. And week two is half term. This looks like I might get to go up for a day.

SternJoyousBeev2 · 05/09/2025 08:42

KeepTalkingBeth · 04/09/2025 12:45

Just listened to this on the BBC website. Quite unsophisticated I thought.

Lots of dismissive "oh it's culture wars" and "it's so complex" from the smug male while he brushes over any actual detail

They manage to avoid actually saying what the case is about (harassment, victimisation etc), instead say that "Miss Peggie was suspended and she wasn't happy about that"

No comment about how NHSF conducted their disciplinary process, the repeated lack of disclosure, the public statement

No mention of the attempts to deceive the tribunal by DU; too busy speculating how much of a racist Sandie is

Lots of "the court rooms are full, it's so exciting" and "remember these are real people", "this will have implications as to whether trans people should be excluded from women's spaces". No thought about trans men and missing the whole fucking point of the case which is WOMEN'S RIGHTS

I have no doubt the authors of the podcast think it was balanced.

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They were rubbish I thought. Far too much “it’s complicated” when it’s anything but. Interesting how the bloke admitted that he avoided the topic when on TV and radio because of reaction and hinted that he avoids pronouns altogether

SternJoyousBeev2 · 05/09/2025 08:49

MyrtleLion · 04/09/2025 13:33

He was given the opportunity to email the original files that were just screenshots provided to the court. He declined. See my first post at the top of page 1 of this thread for the details.

Given his refusal to comply, the tribunal is allowed to make an irresistible inference (one of most favourite legal phrases, used in many employment law cases), that he is might be hiding something.

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He wouldn’t even provide details if the exact make and model if his phone so that the IT guy could try and replicate the alleged synching issue. I hope the Panel infer away to their hearts content on Upton’s character and attitude to the Tribunal. Arrogant narcissist comes to mind for some inexplicable reason

EsmeWeatherwaxHatpin · 05/09/2025 08:51

If the tribunal do infer that DU has been deceitful and obstructive in the phone matters that will be a lovely dark grey cloud hanging over every single moment of his evidence, and it seems a clear cut obfuscation to me!

Bannedontherun · 05/09/2025 08:53

SternJoyousBeev2 · 05/09/2025 08:49

He wouldn’t even provide details if the exact make and model if his phone so that the IT guy could try and replicate the alleged synching issue. I hope the Panel infer away to their hearts content on Upton’s character and attitude to the Tribunal. Arrogant narcissist comes to mind for some inexplicable reason

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Yes IMHO that refusal is the final nail he put in his own coffin hence irresistible inference

SternJoyousBeev2 · 05/09/2025 09:00

ProfoundlyPeculiarAndWeird · 04/09/2025 14:30

It may well be that I am just a bit too naive (I've several times been surprised when politicians, etc, that I have believed to be sincere turned out to have been lying) and/or because I haven't watched any of the proceedings, but my initial reaction to KS's tears was to take her at face value when she expressed a concern for the witness whom she said could substantiate Upton's account.

I understood KS to be saying that this particular witness was reluctant to get involved because of fears around racism -- not racism from Peggie but just the horror of being thrown into the whole social media world in which the case was discussed, which would likely be way more vitriolic towards a black or minority ethnic person because that is the shitty world we live in.

I thought that KS was thinking something like "This person has been named and is therefore going to be sucked into awfulness" and that the tears were a straw-that-broke-the-camel's-back moment, in which the culmination of all the stresses of the trial reached the point of overwhelm.

Perhaps she even thought that it was ultimately her fault that this particular witness had been sucked in.

I dunno though. I used to think I was quite good at judging sincerity, but I think now that perhaps I am a bit too trusting.

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I don't buy the idea that everyone was scared of Sandie because she was such a huge bigot. And that excuse doesn’t put any of the staff or management at Fife in a good light. They had obligations to deal with Sandie big they believed that colleagues were scared of her due to her being racist. But they only acted when she was nasty to poor gentle, kind ‘Beth’.

If the racism was an issue during the investigation they should have brought a second disciplinary action against her. The smoking gun of the nasty jokes only came out when Lindsay couldn’t stomach the prospect of Sandie potentially getting a large payout. It’s just as likely that RA didn’t want to get involved in the process other than a written statement because she also objected to Upton being in the female changing room. My understanding is she didn’t want to be interviewed without a union rep with her.

SternJoyousBeev2 · 05/09/2025 09:04

Thinking about it some more I suppose RA also was concerned about the possibility of implications for herself for not having reported a patient safety issue?

Either way you cut this cake, nothing good is coming out of this about the culture at this hospital with staff possibly ignoring patient safety and ignoring racist comments. But they only acted straw hat breaks the camel’s back is Upton’s hurty fee fees.

prh47bridge · 05/09/2025 09:14

SternJoyousBeev2 · 05/09/2025 09:04

Thinking about it some more I suppose RA also was concerned about the possibility of implications for herself for not having reported a patient safety issue?

Either way you cut this cake, nothing good is coming out of this about the culture at this hospital with staff possibly ignoring patient safety and ignoring racist comments. But they only acted straw hat breaks the camel’s back is Upton’s hurty fee fees.

RA flatly contradicted Upton's version of events. If she was telling the truth, there was no patient safety issue for her to report. On the evidence, I don't believe there were any patient safety issues. All indications are that these were invented to bolster the case against SP when it became clear to Upton and his supporters that the changing room incident would not result in the level of punishment they believed SP deserved.

Similarly, the evidence of SP's racism, homophobia and transphobia barely gets above the level of gossip.

Harassedevictee · 05/09/2025 09:17

SternJoyousBeev2 · 05/09/2025 09:04

Thinking about it some more I suppose RA also was concerned about the possibility of implications for herself for not having reported a patient safety issue?

Either way you cut this cake, nothing good is coming out of this about the culture at this hospital with staff possibly ignoring patient safety and ignoring racist comments. But they only acted straw hat breaks the camel’s back is Upton’s hurty fee fees.

I actually think RA was very sensible. Quietly gave evidence as a witness and then kept it quiet - confidential. The fact JR didn’t call her as a witness suggests her evidence would support SP.

BIWI · 05/09/2025 10:05

BIWI · 04/09/2025 16:52

I haven’t been keeping up with all the threads, so apologies if this has already been discussed - but is Dr Upton working right now, or has he been suspended/signed off till there’s a decision?

Can anyone shed any light on this, please?

thewaythatyoudoit · 05/09/2025 11:52

Ooh, a submision of No Case to Answer in the Linehan trial (sorry if obvs, but it would mean if successful that the Magistrate (judge in this case) will throw out the case because the prosecution can't pass go. My guess, based on wonderful Nick W's notes is that so far they haven't established much in the way of damage to the phone GL threw, and in any case haven't established that any damage was caused by GL (complainant actually says in one of his treatening messages to the police 'damage GL MAY have caused). Fingers crossed. Whatever you think of GL, this lot are an absolute shower, and I can't see the judge being thrilled at the criminal justice system being used as an instrument of oppression

thewaythatyoudoit · 05/09/2025 12:00

On the harassment charge, defence say it's pot and kettle

NebulousSupportPostcard · 05/09/2025 12:12

BIWI · 05/09/2025 10:05

Can anyone shed any light on this, please?

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I have been following as much as possible and I don't think we have evidence either way. One poster has said they saw Upton in a corridor at the Vic Hospital wearing ordinary clothes not scrubs - which could have been for an appointment or meeting or anything really.

I don't think JR commented on what Upton in her submissions on what Upton is doing now, unlike NC who noted that SP is off sick.

The only concrete thing I have seen is that Upton's correspondence address in the case management papers (For June 25, I think) is the same as for R1: the other hospital within NHSFife (it's named but I can't recall it), and that in statements NHSFife have referred to both SP and Upton as employees (who deserve kindness or some such spiel).

Presumably Upton is lying low somewhere, and with good reason.

NebulousSupportPostcard · 05/09/2025 12:24

EsmeWeatherwaxHatpin · 05/09/2025 08:51

If the tribunal do infer that DU has been deceitful and obstructive in the phone matters that will be a lovely dark grey cloud hanging over every single moment of his evidence, and it seems a clear cut obfuscation to me!

Even before the request for phone evidence was made, the J's questions to Upton were deliciously suggestive of disbelief. I would still be in a panic attack today, 6 months on, if a judge questioned me so precisely, with such a terrifyingly casual tone, ("... so, if we asked around, there would probably be a few people who saw you?") about things that I knew I had made up.

BIWI · 05/09/2025 12:27

If he is still working, the atmosphere around him must be awkward.

moto748e · 05/09/2025 12:30

Surely it will be wherever he works, after this notoriety.

NebulousSupportPostcard · 05/09/2025 12:35

There will probably still be people who like/appreciate him for whatever made them friends before the debacle began. And I would imagine everyone else will be working hard to fly under the radar and say and do nothing that could drag themselves into the shit show.

We can probably more safely assume that Currer, Searle and Davidson have no choice to be back in work and I would love to hear the idle chat about them that goes on in quiet corners.

And the ex-Benidorm crew must be having awkward times too. Who can be trusted now?

Peregrina · 05/09/2025 12:37

Consultants used to be put on a pedestal, and I imagine that the base of Searle's pedestal is well and truly cracked.

NebulousSupportPostcard · 05/09/2025 12:38

@MyrtleLion I wasn't logged in when catching up yesterday but just wanted to say thanks for the tantalising extracts from NC's final submissions. I have downloaded and will definitely be reading that through this week!

Boiledbeetle · 05/09/2025 12:55

NebulousSupportPostcard · 05/09/2025 12:38

@MyrtleLion I wasn't logged in when catching up yesterday but just wanted to say thanks for the tantalising extracts from NC's final submissions. I have downloaded and will definitely be reading that through this week!

It's gripping reading.

Once you start its impossible to stop until the end!

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