NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #53

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give more evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected].

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025

Don't worry, it's only one end of the spectrum, usually reserved for students, new mums and carers. Or mornings after very good nights!

Yes and snobbery about Drs v nurses too. I expect that a male nurse seeking to use a female Dr's changing toom would get short shrift

Possibly but not certain - TW are Gods don't forget.

Not quite the same but with the Darlington nurses case, those women objecting to a male nurse in the changing room were told to be more inclusive.

Isla Bumba did say that there were other trans people at NHS Fife. It made me wonder how they behaved, and why this wasn't explored a bit more? It they are TW but are either not required to change at work or quietly finding a place for the correct sex, it would show Upton's behaviour up as being that of an attention seeker.

I had to laugh at JR with her ‘DU was universally praised’ paraphrased. She must have been referring to the (I won’t say crooked, I might think it though) cabal of ideological activists who seem to think men such as DU can do what they want and it smells of roses. Others who actually got to hear and see him perform in person might have wondered at her ability to continue as if no one had heard/seen/read about his performance in person, or his apparent shenanigans.

-People got to hear him say he would impose himself on women who had requested female only care and so did not consent to him treating her. Only if the woman was able to object further would he finally stop. Don’t forget we are talking about ill women who may be very vulnerable.

-People got to hear how he imposed himself in the female single sex changing room, and stayed despite knowing how much he was creeping women out. I can’t speak to any voyeurism or exposure. I think it transpired that he was aware of what state of undress women in the room were in from a description he gave of some woman he encountered. May have been SP. I may be wrong that he voiced his awareness to the ET, but I think it is on record. If so, a man in the changing room having a gawk at women who were undressing would be voyeurism. Even if he is trying to suggest it is in passing. Any man who is lurking in the female changing room and is looking at all is peeping tom territory in my opinion.

-People got to hear from the IT expert how the only explanation for the discrepancy in the dates of his phone entries was that they were tampered with.

Now, this is what we know about him as has been revealed during the ET. Possibly a superficial layer, with the phone withheld and no canary singing. That alone would be enough for me to think of him as an extremely dodgy and creepy creep. I can’t help but wonder what would be revealed about him under the surface if his phone had had to be given for inspection. Uurgh, shudder.

Thanks @anyolddinosaurand @Notatmyagefor this peep behind the scenes. I live not too far from Dundee and had thought of attending or lurking outside to support Sandie but its sounds like there is a crowd. NC et al are prepared and professional with prepared handouts but JR is still working to handwritten notes? Inept and unprepared.

This journalist expanded on the behind the scenes a bit more in the podcast. Its so refreshing to hear accurate reporting.

with the link

That’s interesting that you got the impression she was genuine and of course you could be right. I agree that everyone in court found it awkward, I thought that was because it seemed to be an act but they had of course to treat KS in a sympathetic manner.

Personally I found it unlikely that someone whose job involves treated accident victims and serious medical emergencies would be in tears at the thought that a HCA might possibly have a racist comment said to her by a nurse, at some time in the future. Which is why KS said she was crying.

If you can’t cope with that, how do you deal with a pregnant woman who has been stabbed to death by her partner, babies with non accidental head injuries or cigarette burns and children / teenagers who have life changing injuries after an RTA?

Also I saw KS in the corridor and in the bathroom immediately afterwards and she didn’t look like someone who had been genuinely crying. But of course that’s only my opinion.

What did you think of her “Beth is so lovely speech “?

It was Michael Foran on TwiX.

https://x.com/michaelpforan/status/1962835395936129217

Place Mark where does every one get the energy to keep up with the threads? I’ve just eaten the second to last Tunnocks Tea Cake and contemplating what my dgs would say if I ate the last one!

Was it not more that KS became aware that SP’s team were aware that KS’s allegation that the racist thing definitely happened (and person involved was afraid to say anything cos of SP) was refuted and it ran a coach and four through her spiel.

Being found out.

I only skimmed through NC's submission to the Judge but I note how the press got hold of the story in the Spring/Summer of 2024. The suggestion from JR, I think I read, is that Sandie Peggie had gone to the Press. Big no - no, something else to damn her with.

I have lived in smallish towns and Kirkaldy is probably one where everyone knows each other; the suspension would have become common knowledge and people would have been talking about it. A good reporter would quickly sniff out that this was a good story. Especially so, if they didn't buy the TWAW spiel.

Despite all these months to reflect, she showed no insight into her serious mistakes of judgement and her abject failure to follow the correct procedures

I’ll say again that I think she’s besotted with him. I can’t think of any other explanation for such unwise and unprofessional behaviour. It’s a most bizarre situation.

Love indeed can make fools of us all.

I’ll say again that I think she’s besotted with him.

And has a personal grudge against Sandie Peggie.

Given the email on Christmas Day to

<checks notes>

19 consultants

no one can prove it was Sandie who leaked it to the press.

The submission has a lot to say about the confidentiality warning only going to Sandie.

But if they are trans men then any issues arising will be different in terms of safeguarding etc. This is one of the most extraordinary features of thinking about ‘the trans community’ - the idea that trans women and trans men have all issues in common.

But if they are trans men then any issues arising will be different in terms of safeguarding etc

Quite so. A transman would probably cause irritation and discomfort in the men's changing room, but that's about all.

😂😂 it would probably be very good for the Wall of Sad to have that happen, might cheer them up!

I think the tears could well have been genuine - an inkling of how badly she had misjudged the situation/DU, how bad she looks (nobody here thinks I am kind! How can it be!!) how it’s going to impact on her (what is my future going to look like now?) and perhaps even a moment of clarity over having contributed to a very toxic workplace for SP.

Tears are often about something that isn’t the obvious issue.

Your knowledge is superior to mine as I was watching over the video link not attending court so I didn't see her in person.
I'm a retired A&E consultant & cannot imagine any of my old consultant colleagues of either sex collapsing in a simpering mess like KS. Her “Beth is so lovely" & "I'm a kind person" sent me wildly speculating as to what hold Theo Upton must have over her she was such a passionate advocate on his behalf.

I briefly thought that she must be a TIM to be so partial.

Re the differences between NC's and JR's submission documents, NC is clearly a very organised person - in the attached podcast she talks about preparing bundles for court. I wonder if RMW could do with a coaching session?

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/s9e12-tribunal-bundles/id1473171786?i=1000683857011

ETA: I also think she has a lovely speaking voice.

Just listened to this on the BBC website. Quite unsophisticated I thought.

Lots of dismissive "oh it's culture wars" and "it's so complex" from the smug male while he brushes over any actual detail

They manage to avoid actually saying what the case is about (harassment, victimisation etc), instead say that "Miss Peggie was suspended and she wasn't happy about that"

No comment about how NHSF conducted their disciplinary process, the repeated lack of disclosure, the public statement

No mention of the attempts to deceive the tribunal by DU; too busy speculating how much of a racist Sandie is

Lots of "the court rooms are full, it's so exciting" and "remember these are real people", "this will have implications as to whether trans people should be excluded from women's spaces". No thought about trans men and missing the whole fucking point of the case which is WOMEN'S RIGHTS

I have no doubt the authors of the podcast think it was balanced.

I am really really struggling with the Bananarama defence. My understanding was that the entire POV from Fife and Upton was that Sandie was completely unreasonable, wrong and hateful in not wanting Upton in the changing room.

But now Fife are saying scratch all that. That instead they reckon it is not unreasonable or wrong to not want Upton in the changing room, as long as you are of what they consider to be good character and ask nicely. (Details of who to ask unclear.)

So Fife are very much distancing themselves from Upton?

Because he was 100% of the view that there was never going to be any justification for not wanting him in your changing room, BUT if you had suffered sexual assult AND told a manager all about it then MAYBE they'd let you get changed in a cupboard instead. (Paraphrasing, but only just. Emphasis my own.) So he must be livid with the Bananarama defence?

I don't get how JR can argue / waffle for two opposing stances?

This is, in essence, the KS tears situation

This is the problem with representing two clients where there's even a possibility of their interests diverging.

I'm sure JR is a skilled horsewoman, but I doubt if she can ride two horses at once.

The only question in my mind is - is it Upton or Fife that wants to hold out to the bitter end?

Surely it is not too late for him to hand over his phone if such a referral happens, and prove that he wasn't lying.
He'd have far more incentive to prove he wasn't lying under those circumstances.