NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #53

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give more evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected].

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025

Para 334 in the submission: "A separate email thread of the same title was established between Nicola Robertson, Belinda Morgan, Isla Bumba and Kate Searle in which Nicola Robertson set out her position on language usage in the article “The terminology is completely wrong and she should not be referred to as a ‘trans identifying male’. In C’s submission, this was a telling and accurate reflection at from one of the most senior members of the Board of its position on language usage and the impermissibility of the expression of gender critical beliefs. That was further affirmed by Norma Beveridge’s reply “It’s actually worse - if you look on The Couriers FB page the article has been published and the comments are terrible - all in support of the nurse”

Norma B is/was the Director of Nursing, so pretty senior, and I find it both gobsmacking and appalling that someone in that position couldn't see, or accept once seen, how this would look to an outsider (i.e. to the people commenting on the Courier article).

On the basis of an overly optimistic view of humanity, I think.

The initial investigation meeting where Sandie was formally asked about the incident was the 12 April 2024.

She was aware of the allegation about the incident in late December 2023 when she was placed on special leave, and then again at the formal suspension meeting on 3 January. She may have given her version of events at these meetings, but this is not clear, and it would be normal to ask her in an investigation meeting.

However, it is highly likely that the first time she was asked for her account of the incident was on the 12 April.

They hadn't asked her by 15th Feb:

268.
On 15 February Margaret Gribbon wrote to R1 intimating a claim. [287] That letter set out, inter alia, C’s version of events, alleged that the decision to allow Dr Upton to use the women’s changing room was in breach of the HSW Regs 1992, that the decision to suspend was ill-judged, disproportionate and unlawful and that other colleagues shared her concerns but the prevailing culture within R1 discouraged the raising of such concerns. R1 not having interviewed C or spoken to her about her version of events, this was the first occasion on which R1 heard any representations from C.

After that they seem to have moved into discussion of how to get her back to work (on different shifts etc) but I haven't found any evidence that they asked her about the Christmas Eve incident - though I suppose, once they had her version via her solicitor, it might have seemed superfluous to do so.

They would still need her version from her at an investigation meeting so they could ask questions.

It seems clear that (probably) a significant reason she was brought back was because her solicitor had written to NHSF, which scared the horses.

Sandie was put on Special Leave in December, then invited in for a “ chat” in January and suspended, but not given an opportunity to provide a spoken or written Statement. NC says that Sandies solicitor wrote to Fife in February, setting out her version of the meeting in the changing room , and that this was the first time Fife would have had this information. Lottie Myles met with Sandie in March to review the suspension, and said she should return to work. She returned in April. Lauren ? then warned Sandie to keep confidentiality in June but she did not have an investigation interview until August. I think Du had given 2 or possibly 3 statements by then, as well as at least 2 formal interviews, and lots of cosy chats and inclusion into investigation email chains. The difference is quite stark .

Ah. I missed the April meeting out. Sorry .

Do we have access to Jane Russell’s final submissions?

I'm going to give it another go.

(GRRRRRRR)
(Ignore my Grrring the image has appeared)

Oooh it's done it!!

Yay!

Here you go

where can I read NC's final submission?

Use the links at the bottom of the page halfway down under the heading

Submissions & Closing Arguments

Peggie vs Fife Health Board and Dr. B Upton - Part 2 (substack.com)

Delurking to say that I thought that article was great, having not been able to watch it I thought it was very telling the author noted no attendees appeared to be supporters for Dr Upton since February and the full overspill rooms were all in support for Sandie.

Someone asked upthread

“What do the transgender people think a woman is? It can't be biology because they're never going to have it. It can't really be clothes because we run a spectrum from sniff and pick from the wash basket in the dark because we're busy to full on Barbie. It can't be educational level or mothering style because we're all unique.“

Id imagine that the clothes issue was a particular problem from DU at work, because all the junior doctors wear scrubs and crocs. Scrubs are supposedly “unisex “ but they are usually cut for the male body - larger at the shoulders, smaller at the waist and hips. So no chance to “ dress as a woman at work “ .

All junior doctors in hospital will have long hair tied back and have no jewellery like a watch, bracelet or necklace, although some might wear stud earrings or a simple band ring. Most women wear very little if any make up and have short unpainted nails.

So how on earth does a man in that situation perform femininity? yes he can change his first name but lots of patients don’t bother to read a name badge.

Patients and staff will see a 6ft tall, broad shouldered ex rugby player with an Adam’s apple, a 5 o’clock shadow and a receding hairline who walks like a man and sounds like a man.

He also acts with the entitlement of a white Middle class man.

So the only people at work who can make him feel feminine are the other staff. This must be much more important than it might be in an office, when a transwomen can (probably unlike any of the women ) wear a short skirt , high heels, tights and a see - through blouse that shows their underwear. They can have long painted nails, a great deal of make up and long, carefully styled hair do.

In hospital , all junior doctors have the same courtesy title of doctor, so no chance to correct others all day - “it’s MISS Upton not Mr. “. Patients will just refer to you as “ a/ the doctor “.

You don’t get to send emails all day with your pronouns and correct people.

You spend your day running around like a blue arsed fly, doing handovers , ward rounds, chasing results, answering bleeps , writing notes and discharge summaries, ordering investigations, talking to patients and relatives. Little time for head tilting, giggle, girl talk and hair flicking.

It must be a very unrewarding setting for those who need others to validate their feminine gender identity.

I wonder if the sight of so many of Sex Realists in the court is making the respondents reconsider their position on the Right Side Of History.

Or, as it's more correctly called, the Wrong Side Of History.

Confused about the Bananarama defence, in that surely there is a clash with the FWS result. The SC were clear that women’s prisons were included, so women convicted of various crimes still have this protection regardless of behaviour.

Surely therefore SP is covered too regardless of how she addressed the issue?

Fife have cleared her of misconduct too with no mention of her manner, so I cannot see there is anything there of value to pick apart?

It confuses me…

Do we think sexual fetishes are not mental illnesses? I'm not sure what definition of the latter would exclude the former.

i feel slightly worried that we are in an echo chamber. Seeing all of this through our own perspective. I am afraid this case will go the wrong way but surely it can’t? Upton is a disgrace and KS is an obvious disgrace so many obvious disgraces? LC jees - did no one want to do the right thing the right way? Please god it won’t go any other way but the right way. But I am still worried.

😂😂

I don’t think we are on this occasion although I accept that sometimes we can be. Look at the public reaction on Facebook etc.

I was in A&E the night before the incident - got there at night on the 23rd and left Christmas Eve morning. As I said on one of the other threads, I noticed a bloke that I thought might be a TIM - long hair tied in a ponytail, a bit of eye make-up: just mascara and eyeliner, I think. In scrubs. He wasn't there for long - he came into A&E and then left shortly after I got there. (They kept me overnight in case I was having a stroke - it was just an ocular migraine: I'd originally been sent there in case I had a retina that was becoming detached.)

It might have been U, but I'm not sure - the hair was dark, I thought, rather than auburn.

I'll probably be called bigoted, but I was relieved that he didn't deal with me.

Most comments that I've seen on Fife FB pages have been pro Sandie Peggie. The same when speaking about it to other women in Fife.

I've only discussed it with one man - a HCP (not in a hospital) who informed me that as a father and grandfather of girls his main concern is their well-being. He's really not happy about the leeway given to Upton.