NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #53

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give more evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected].

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025

I think that women are often socially conditioned to behave in this way towards individuals that they perceive as 'vulnerable', and possibly even biologically conditioned through hormones. Hence TiM present their vulnerability as key strategy to getting attention, affirmation etc.

Would you say that they get power that way too? Look at me, aren't I KIND. Aren't I in tune with the times? (Aren't I vulnerable as anything now!) Seriously, thanks, because I've been piecing things together across culture in general for a while and that's a great big piece.

Oh there is absolutely a power aspect. Come on - you get to be Henry Higgins to their Eliza Doolittle, and you get to be part of the Alphabet Family without having to actually do anything yourself. And yes, look at me, this extra special and totally vulnerable person chose ME to be their mentor, I must therefore be the KINDEST.

Ugh reminds me of all the smarming around the poor oppressed trans people at my work. You know, the ones who get to write the policies, get senior leaders to be their champions, take employers and colleagues to court if they don’t get their way or if anyone questions them 😡

That's it. I'm still working out how you can be a tall ex rugby player and small and vulnerable and fragile. I was reading a piece in the Daily Mail (I read anything!) by their resident doctors about how doctors have to be sociopaths or they couldn't do their jobs. He talked about how they have to go from telling someone a relative has died to reassuring a child, and I can't see the behaviour being displayed by Upton and Searle working there. Therefore it's performative behaviour, and I HATE that because I don't like manipulators. They bring out my inner toddler, which is never pretty. (Practises stamping foot and saying shan't and then decides it's easier to just walk away and say 'nope' you're not my people.')

I think you've just hit on what Laurie Penny gets out of this.

And Maugham?

I wouldn't want to speculate on Jolyon's thought processes...

He has trans-identifying children, doesn't he? So it's not just a case of "this extra special and totally vulnerable person chose ME to be their mentor" but also "I'm their father".

Maybe KS had moved from supervising into surrogate parenting.

No indeed, he thinks it’s a good look to do a spittle-flecked pointy-fingered rant to camera and publish it on the internet! <shudder>

Not just any vulnerable person. A MALE vulnerable person. They must think they gain status or protection by their service to men decreasing their own vulnerability.

What these fawners fail to grasp in their desperation to 'be kind' is that these Eliza Doolittles wouldn't piss on them if they were on fire. They're oh so important to them with their supplyort but in reality they mean nothing to them.

I am quite sure that Upton will happily throw Kate Searle under the bus if it suits him to do so.

I am not a historian (is that IANAH?) but I think there are many, many examples of this type of behaviour in women - save and/or better yourself by allying with the strong (or main character, at any rate) man, other women be damned.

And I am also not a psychologist, just a behaviourist, but I’m sure there are good psychological and evolutionary reasons for that, even if from the outside it seems morally questionable.

I agree. His arguments are

1. My account is more reliable than Sandie’s because my notes are contemporaneous . He can’t say out loud “ You must believe me because I’m special and she’s not “.
2. I was the terrified victim in the changing room , so I can’t admit that I chose to get changed in front of Sandie AND I could have left anytime ( I just had to force the witch to do what I say first).
3. Oh look I’ve got all this other evidence against her ! But then the BMA rep told me it shows that I’m also at fault for not reporting it at the time. So I’ll just prevaricate and cause confusion and delay and hope that no one asks me about it again.

So that plan worked out well 😂

I also think these women believe they will have a strong protector in men like this, meaning they can be seen as "taken" by other men and must not be harassed.

This they show other women they are kind, and other men that they are not to be messed with because this man will protect them (like a chaperone or brother). They then have the time and space to select the best mate from the available men, rather than being forced to be with the strongest/most powerful man.

IIRC at one point when NC was cross-examining DU and asking about his notes, he said superciliously, "Yes, that's what contemporaneous means". I'm so happy that's come back to bite him on the arse, the arrogant fool

Hasn’t he effectively already done that?

By telling her versions of multiple events that are disputed and allowing her to champion him to the extent she did and is now a new respondent herself?

I’m not suggesting KS is without agency here and should have acted differently, but if U actually cared about KS you’d think as things escalated he might have tried to row her (and the whole process) back.

But he didn’t.

Which takes me back round to Bugs Bunny and Daffy Duck in the Abominable snowman 'It was him or me, and obviously it couldn't be me. I'm not like other people. I can't stand pain. It hurts me.'

In the cartoon, Bugs outsmarts Daffy and the snowman melts. I suspect that the culture that's enabling this is starting to do the same. Or so I'd like to believe. And boy, don't I feel inferior to all you clever people, when the best I have to offer is Bugs Bunny

Bugs is great 😊.

But I’m not sure it applies to U and KS (U and SP - I think it fits well).

With KS it wasn’t her or me. Rather he didn’t care or he never considered that he’d joined her fate to his. Making both him and KS “Bugs”.

To re-iterate the evidence shows KS being a willing “champion” here who never stopped to question U’s version of events and that’s on her.

But if we assume SP’s recollection of the CR incident was correct would KS behaved as she did if she had known that?

Laurie Penny identifies as trans and claims she has been attacked in public. I was quite confused to hear both these things.

But if we assume SP’s recollection of the CR incident was correct would KS behaved as she did if she had known that?

And here we have the crux of the matter. We cannot know how KS would have acted if she had known that, and this reveals that KS should have at least made an attempt to find out, or referred it to HR for advice. (At least then this would be HR's fault and not hers.)

The judge may even point this out.

Instead she sent an email to 19 consultants that had the effect of being a megaphone in the department saying, a man had his feels very very hurt to the point that they were very hurty feels. And a little tiny woman, a nurse, made him feel so sad he had to write Sad Times in his note. Burn the witch.

I agree with you re: what KS should have done.

I’m just mulling over U’s lack of consideration to his cheerleaders re: the implications of a lack of accuracy in what he told them.

It gives them the appearance of someone who not only does not care about the consequences for people who stand up to him, but also the people that do.

Edit to add: To be clear I’m not suggesting KS deserves a get out of jail free card here. I’m not at all sympathetic.

TBH that's the best case summary I have ever read. (I used to be a lawyer).

Anyone else tempted to get a #sadtimes tattoo? Just me?!