Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #53

1000 replies

nauticant · 03/09/2025 22:53

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give more evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected].

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025

OP posts:
Thread gallery
59
Cailleach1 · 08/09/2025 18:39

guinnessguzzler · 08/09/2025 18:21

Anyone else tempted to get a #sadtimes tattoo? Just me?!

I sometimes use those stick on ones. Usually tigers etc. Latest are ballet related, as I found them in the shop at an Opera/Ballet venue. Kind of cool (in my own head anyway), without the pain, ink or permanency. Wash them off.

I wonder if any of the orgs would start selling the temporary ones, with quotes, or/and images. There is a rich seam to mine.

#sadtimes would only be the beginning.

Cailleach1 · 08/09/2025 18:45

Now I’m thinking that I could use sticker letters, where you peel off the backing and they are self adhesive. I could put it on my water bottle.
#sad times.

moto748e · 08/09/2025 18:49

Letraset! 😀

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 08/09/2025 18:53

Cailleach1 · 08/09/2025 18:45

Now I’m thinking that I could use sticker letters, where you peel off the backing and they are self adhesive. I could put it on my water bottle.
#sad times.

You can buy temporary tattoo paper that goes in your printer…

MarieDeGournay · 08/09/2025 19:30

moto748e · 08/09/2025 18:49

Letraset! 😀

Letraset!!😍
I found a sheet a while ago which must be decades old, and it worked perfectly.
I used to pore over the Letraset catalogue for hours when I were a nipper... in fact I'm going to go online right now and see if I can buy a 2nd hand one!

I can spot Microgramma Extended at a glance - it's amazing how much it is still used.
Opps. Massive derail. Sorry.
edited to say I've found some Letraset catalogues on eBay, and they are

Helleofabore · 08/09/2025 20:10

Love love love Letraset!

Deanefan · 08/09/2025 20:46

guinnessguzzler · 08/09/2025 18:21

Anyone else tempted to get a #sadtimes tattoo? Just me?!

No but I do drop the phrase into conversations at work occasionally. Often whilst twiddling with the For Women Scotland XX badge on my NHS blue lanyard!

Edited to say where can I get my hands on temp tattoo paper?

NebulousSupportPostcard · 08/09/2025 21:42

MarieDeGournay · 08/09/2025 19:30

Letraset!!😍
I found a sheet a while ago which must be decades old, and it worked perfectly.
I used to pore over the Letraset catalogue for hours when I were a nipper... in fact I'm going to go online right now and see if I can buy a 2nd hand one!

I can spot Microgramma Extended at a glance - it's amazing how much it is still used.
Opps. Massive derail. Sorry.
edited to say I've found some Letraset catalogues on eBay, and they are

Edited

A doctor was struck off in recent years when it was discovered she never completed her initial medical degree, but forged papers from overseas using a letraset!

If Upton had stuck to the old ways of forgery, Mr Borthwick couldn't have found him out!

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/zholia-alemi-how-bogus-psychiatrist-26356059

TWETMIRF · 08/09/2025 22:22

Every time I see sad times I hear the song Two Times by Ann Lee but with a slight lyrics change.

Dr Upton and the Sad Times should be a band name, maybe glam rock as he likes to dress up? Apologies to all glam rockers (except Glitter), it's a genre I do like.

murasaki · 08/09/2025 22:24

Or instead of Spector's wall of sound, we have the wall of sad.

moto748e · 08/09/2025 22:52

Oh, Sad Times is always Portishead for me!

MyAmpleSheep · 08/09/2025 23:00

murasaki · 08/09/2025 22:24

Or instead of Spector's wall of sound, we have the wall of sad.

I still see it as a stop-motion film, like Dougal and the Blue Cat: Upton and the wall of Sad.

There could be a whole series: Upton and the Nebulous Dog Whistle, Upton and the Phone Notes, Upton and the Email Circular, it could run and run.

NebulousSupportPostcard · 08/09/2025 23:04

When Sandie Peggie - The Musical hits the West End, I'd like to hear Kate Searle serenading Upton with Mental as Anything's
"Hey there you with the sad face :/
Come up to my place, let's live it up..."

lcakethereforeIam · 08/09/2025 23:15

You outside the girl's door
What do you cry for? Let's live it up 🎶

NebulousSupportPostcard · 09/09/2025 00:15

MyAmpleSheep · 08/09/2025 23:00

I still see it as a stop-motion film, like Dougal and the Blue Cat: Upton and the wall of Sad.

There could be a whole series: Upton and the Nebulous Dog Whistle, Upton and the Phone Notes, Upton and the Email Circular, it could run and run.

Upton and the Contemporaneous Notes
Upton and the Sixth Best Forensic Phone Data Evidence
Upton and the Big Girl Pants
Upton in the Plaster Room in socks

MyAmpleSheep · 09/09/2025 00:54

NebulousSupportPostcard · 09/09/2025 00:15

Upton and the Contemporaneous Notes
Upton and the Sixth Best Forensic Phone Data Evidence
Upton and the Big Girl Pants
Upton in the Plaster Room in socks

Fabulous! So many options :-)

Easytoconfuse · 09/09/2025 06:02

murasaki · 08/09/2025 22:24

Or instead of Spector's wall of sound, we have the wall of sad.

Or the wail of sad?

guinnessguzzler · 09/09/2025 06:22

TWETMIRF · 08/09/2025 22:22

Every time I see sad times I hear the song Two Times by Ann Lee but with a slight lyrics change.

Dr Upton and the Sad Times should be a band name, maybe glam rock as he likes to dress up? Apologies to all glam rockers (except Glitter), it's a genre I do like.

Brilliant! Got that in my head now. Sadly times, da da da da da da, da da da da da da, sad times. Love it!

KTheGrey · 09/09/2025 07:55

NebulousSupportPostcard · 08/09/2025 21:42

A doctor was struck off in recent years when it was discovered she never completed her initial medical degree, but forged papers from overseas using a letraset!

If Upton had stuck to the old ways of forgery, Mr Borthwick couldn't have found him out!

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/zholia-alemi-how-bogus-psychiatrist-26356059

That story is staggering. Highlights for me included the GMC claiming it had checked all the other certificates and they are all not fake and claiming they have improved their systems since then - it’s almost like a single point of confirmation system without scrutiny is vulnerable to abuse.

But nobody noticing that she was no good at her job is also interesting. Does it suggest a concerning lack of monitoring of a role that gives its holder a great degree of power, or that the qualifications to be a psychiatrist are unnecessary and half way resourceful liars can fake it?

RedToothBrush · 09/09/2025 08:08

NebulousSupportPostcard · 08/09/2025 21:42

A doctor was struck off in recent years when it was discovered she never completed her initial medical degree, but forged papers from overseas using a letraset!

If Upton had stuck to the old ways of forgery, Mr Borthwick couldn't have found him out!

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/zholia-alemi-how-bogus-psychiatrist-26356059

The GMC and their ‘abject failure of scrutiny’
Following Alemi’s conviction, Judge Hilary Manley raised concerns about the level of scrutiny the GMC had of the forged documents.

She asked for a statement from a representative, explaining what had happened at the time.

Speaking at the sentence hearing, she said: “Anyone who took more than a cursory glance at the purported degree and letter of verification should have prompted at least a telephone call to the University of Auckland to check and make full enquiries.

AND

However, in a statement provided to the judge by the GMC, it said: “In the mid 1990s these documents were not subject to the rigorous checks now in place. It’s clear the process almost three decades ago was inadequate. 27 years on, the GMC system is much more robust.”

In sentencing Alemi, Judge Manley said: “The quality of the spelling, grammar and printing in that document [the letter of verification] should have alerted even the most casual reader that something was very much amiss, but, for whatever reason, it appears even the most basic checks, such as a telephone call or letter to the School of Medicine, which would have confirmed immediately that the Registrar named in the letter was no longer in post, and that in any event you had not completed your degree, were not carried out.

“That the degree certificate and supporting letter were accepted by the GMC represents an abject failure of scrutiny.”

AND

The judge called for the GMC to conduct a “thorough, open, transparent” inquiry into how the defendant was able to submit “such clearly false documents” and why it took a journalist rather than a professional governing body to uncover the truth.

AND

“Your autism however does not preclude you from also being highly manipulative and cunning.

“I also note that during the course of the trial, through your lawyers, you sought to portray almost every prosecution witness as inept or dishonest, and called into question the integrity and impartiality of an expert witness. You are of course not to be punished for that, but I am entitled to take it into account when assessing whether you have any remorse (you do not) or insight (you have none).”

Una Lane, Director of Registration and Revalidation at the GMC, said: “We are very sorry that Zholia Alemi was able to join our medical register in the 1990s, based on fraudulent documentation, and for any risk arising to patients as a result.

“Our processes are far stronger now, with rigorous testing in place to make sure those joining the register are fit to work in the UK. It is clear that in this case the steps taken almost three decades ago were inadequate. We are confident that, 27 years on, our systems are robust.

“Patients deserve good care from appropriately qualified professionals and place a great deal of trust in doctors. To exploit that trust and the respected name of the profession is abhorrent.”

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 09/09/2025 08:21

Hmmm. Feels familiar somehow.

“I also note that during the course of the trial, through your lawyers, you sought to portray almost every prosecution witness as inept or dishonest, and called into question the integrity and impartiality of an expert witness. You are of course not to be punished for that, but I am entitled to take it into account when assessing whether you have any remorse (you do not) or insight (you have none).”

MyrtleLion · 09/09/2025 08:24

We are confident that, 27 years on, our systems are robust.

But we are still happy for men and women to change their name and their sex marker under a brand new registration number. Yes, this does mean they can't be linked, and yes, we do insist that doctors who change their name when they get married, divorced or by deed poll must keep their number, but you have no idea how special kind these doctors are.

RedToothBrush · 09/09/2025 08:39

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 09/09/2025 08:21

Hmmm. Feels familiar somehow.

“I also note that during the course of the trial, through your lawyers, you sought to portray almost every prosecution witness as inept or dishonest, and called into question the integrity and impartiality of an expert witness. You are of course not to be punished for that, but I am entitled to take it into account when assessing whether you have any remorse (you do not) or insight (you have none).”

Doesn't it just. I thought that paragraph fascinating.

Easytoconfuse · 09/09/2025 11:59

NebulousSupportPostcard · 09/09/2025 00:15

Upton and the Contemporaneous Notes
Upton and the Sixth Best Forensic Phone Data Evidence
Upton and the Big Girl Pants
Upton in the Plaster Room in socks

How about
Dr Upton and the Tribunal of Doom
Dr Searle and the Last Crusade of purity
Young Dr Upton - the Missing three years.
Or even Dr No way with Naomi Cunningham as a Bond style barrister

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.