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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Gay rights group barred from Brighton pub over gender-critical views

47 replies

IwantToRetire · 29/08/2025 19:42

A gender-critical group is preparing to take legal action against a Brighton pub that cancelled its meeting over its “political ideology”.

The group, Human Gay Male (HGM), provides social events for gay men who do not believe in gender ideology.

That is the belief that gender is dictated not by biological sex, but self-identification.

The gender-critical group claims that they booked a room at a Brighton pub for a small event in early August, but the venue later cancelled, citing a problem with political ideology.

The Lion and Lobster pub attributed the decision to its policy of barring bookings for “any groups promoting political ideologies or views”.
This appeared to follow the pub being tipped off about the beliefs of HGM by a group called Terf Watch Brighton, which said on Instagram that “Human Gay Male tried to come to Brighton. They aren’t welcome here”.

Article continues at https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/08/29/gay-rights-group-barred-brighton-pub-gender-critical/

Or at https://archive.is/YO5IB

OP posts:
TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 29/08/2025 20:13

I hope they win, I remember back in the day when Gay men were fighting for the right not to be discriminated against, they took quite a few places to court and won, so hopefully they will this time to.

ArabellaScott · 29/08/2025 20:14

'Terf watch'.

Was 'witch hunt' already taken?

HisNeckIsHigh · 29/08/2025 20:22

So gay men, men that are attracted to men, are a threat to the gay community now? And aren't welcome in one of the gayest places in the country.

Sheesh.

RoyalCorgi · 29/08/2025 20:24

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 29/08/2025 20:13

I hope they win, I remember back in the day when Gay men were fighting for the right not to be discriminated against, they took quite a few places to court and won, so hopefully they will this time to.

It seems pretty clear to me. Forstater established that gender critical beliefs are protected under the Equality Act, and this has successfully been put to the test several times since. Apparently some establishments are still unaware of it. Experience is a hard teacher, but a fool will learn by no other.

IwantToRetire · 29/08/2025 20:47

Partly they get away with because most people have brought the misrepresentation that somehow to be gender critical is right wing extremist position.

In reality not all people engage their brains before having an opinion or political position.

And dont seem to realise they are telling gay men who dont have the right to be a gay man.

OP posts:
Pleasantsort · 29/08/2025 20:52

God these people are so tedious.I hope they win. Bloody Brighton telling gay men how to be gay, ffs !

BiologicalRobot · 29/08/2025 21:12

Thanks OP.

Just when you thought GI couldn't become more stupid and bizarre Brighton say hold my beer.

NPET · 29/08/2025 21:55

This is an interesting case. It's like the world's gone full circle. A few years ago people (especially in Brighton) would have done everything possible to not be seen to discriminate against gay people. Now it's being seen (by some) as right to attack gay people for their beliefs!

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 29/08/2025 22:19

Filia will be fun this year Grin

Trovindia · 29/08/2025 22:21

Biological sex is a political ideology now? But gender is just fact? Sheesh.

MissAnthropic · 30/08/2025 07:28

It'll be interesting to see how this plays out, given the conflict here.

On the one hand, 'gender critical beliefs' are a protected characteristic, so if they were refused service on this basis, that is unlawful. Alison Bailey recently won a Sex Matters funded case against her vet practice for their refusal to continue to treat her dogs for the very same reason. Although the vet practice argued it was because of her behaviour towards staff, she still won. It is of course awful that certain classes of people can abuse the system in this way, but it's the law.

(For a belief to be considered a protected characteristic it must be cogent, serious, cohesive, and important, and it must be worthy of respect in a democratic society, not incompatible with human dignity, and not conflict with the fundamental rights of others.
Obviously, “Gender Critical” views do not meet that criteria, but we live under a judiciary that has ruled that they do and we have to deal with the consequences until that gets fixed.)

Opposing this is the fact that pubs aren't normal businesses. They're licensed premises and the powers and duties of a licensee are different.
All licencees, and their representatives (ie, anyone employed by the establishment) have a legal duty under the Licensing Act 2003 to prevent 'disorderly conduct' of any sort on their premises and can eject people from said premises or refuse service to prevent disorderly conduct. Licensees are not required to give a reason for this and it is a criminal offence to refuse to leave a licensed premises when ordered to do so. It's a different calculus compared to other sorts of venues.

Successful discrimination cases have been brought against pubs refusing entry, particularly several cases bought by Traveller groups, but in this case the refusal was to hold an event which could be argued to lead to possible disorder (counter-protest, etc.), not turning people away at the door. I know of plenty of cases personally of pubs and hotels refusing to hold certain sorts of events for all sorts of reasons.

They're trying to play the homophobia angle because they know that in this case it's by far their best shot. Licenses premises are not required by law to hold politically charged events; indeed, I am pretty sure that GC groups have been turned away from other venues before for conferences etc. and not managed to get anything to stick legally, not just licensed ones.

The fact that this is happening in a city noted for its progressiveness when compared to the... less educated... parts of Britain is surprising.

As I said, it'll be interesting to see how this plays out.

myplace · 30/08/2025 07:33

MissAnthropic · 30/08/2025 07:28

It'll be interesting to see how this plays out, given the conflict here.

On the one hand, 'gender critical beliefs' are a protected characteristic, so if they were refused service on this basis, that is unlawful. Alison Bailey recently won a Sex Matters funded case against her vet practice for their refusal to continue to treat her dogs for the very same reason. Although the vet practice argued it was because of her behaviour towards staff, she still won. It is of course awful that certain classes of people can abuse the system in this way, but it's the law.

(For a belief to be considered a protected characteristic it must be cogent, serious, cohesive, and important, and it must be worthy of respect in a democratic society, not incompatible with human dignity, and not conflict with the fundamental rights of others.
Obviously, “Gender Critical” views do not meet that criteria, but we live under a judiciary that has ruled that they do and we have to deal with the consequences until that gets fixed.)

Opposing this is the fact that pubs aren't normal businesses. They're licensed premises and the powers and duties of a licensee are different.
All licencees, and their representatives (ie, anyone employed by the establishment) have a legal duty under the Licensing Act 2003 to prevent 'disorderly conduct' of any sort on their premises and can eject people from said premises or refuse service to prevent disorderly conduct. Licensees are not required to give a reason for this and it is a criminal offence to refuse to leave a licensed premises when ordered to do so. It's a different calculus compared to other sorts of venues.

Successful discrimination cases have been brought against pubs refusing entry, particularly several cases bought by Traveller groups, but in this case the refusal was to hold an event which could be argued to lead to possible disorder (counter-protest, etc.), not turning people away at the door. I know of plenty of cases personally of pubs and hotels refusing to hold certain sorts of events for all sorts of reasons.

They're trying to play the homophobia angle because they know that in this case it's by far their best shot. Licenses premises are not required by law to hold politically charged events; indeed, I am pretty sure that GC groups have been turned away from other venues before for conferences etc. and not managed to get anything to stick legally, not just licensed ones.

The fact that this is happening in a city noted for its progressiveness when compared to the... less educated... parts of Britain is surprising.

As I said, it'll be interesting to see how this plays out.

Edited

Are you suggesting that a group for men who are gay are will cause disorderly conduct?

MrsOvertonsWindow · 30/08/2025 07:35

There's already a thread about this OP with quite a number of comments :

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5400852-gardening-gay-men-refused-service-because-of-gender-critical-views

MissAnthropic · 30/08/2025 07:46

myplace · 30/08/2025 07:33

Are you suggesting that a group for men who are gay are will cause disorderly conduct?

Not strictly relevant; as you'd know if you'd read - and understood - my post.

It might be the HGM group intended a nice quiet meeting where they discussed their GC ideology over tea and knitting, or it might be they intended a fiery gathering with pitchforks and placards. Obviously, that wasn't the point I was making.

My post, and this case, is about the conflict between a group threatening to sue on being barred from holding their meeting on the one side and the protected rights of a licensed venue to refuse service on the other.

If, and I suspect it is a big if, HGM do proceed with legal action it'll be interesting to see which justification they choose for bringing a case.

MissAnthropic · 30/08/2025 07:51

MrsOvertonsWindow · 30/08/2025 07:35

There's already a thread about this OP with quite a number of comments :

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5400852-gardening-gay-men-refused-service-because-of-gender-critical-views

Thank you for referencing that other thread. It might be better for MNHQ to discontinue this one so there aren't multiple running concurrently with users having to jump back and forth between them to stay updated.

Interesting to see (on the other thread) that they have engaged a solicitor; especially as solicitors - in my admittedly limited experience - generally only pick up a case if they feel there's sufficient evidence for a case.

It only reinforces my earlier point that it'll be interesting to see the outcome, given the direct conflict of two laws in this case.

Igneococcus · 30/08/2025 07:55

(For a belief to be considered a protected characteristic it must be cogent, serious, cohesive, and important, and it must be worthy of respect in a democratic society, not incompatible with human dignity, and not conflict with the fundamental rights of others.
Obviously, “Gender Critical” views do not meet that criteria, but we live under a judiciary that has ruled that they do and we have to deal with the consequences until that gets fixed.)

Not obvious to me at all.

Igneococcus · 30/08/2025 07:56

Thank you for referencing that other thread. It might be better for MNHQ to discontinue this one so there aren't multiple running concurrently with users having to jump back and forth between them to stay updated.

So you want to control what opinions people are allowed to hold and now you tell MN how many threads are allowed on one topic?

99bottlesofkombucha · 30/08/2025 08:09

Igneococcus · 30/08/2025 07:56

Thank you for referencing that other thread. It might be better for MNHQ to discontinue this one so there aren't multiple running concurrently with users having to jump back and forth between them to stay updated.

So you want to control what opinions people are allowed to hold and now you tell MN how many threads are allowed on one topic?

for goodness sake. It was a helpful suggestion to improve the reading and engaging experience of those reading this thread. Off to the other thread now :)

Igneococcus · 30/08/2025 08:14

99bottlesofkombucha · 30/08/2025 08:09

for goodness sake. It was a helpful suggestion to improve the reading and engaging experience of those reading this thread. Off to the other thread now :)

There are often multiple threads running on the same topic and it usually sorts itself out without MN interfering.

99bottlesofkombucha · 30/08/2025 08:18

Igneococcus · 30/08/2025 08:14

There are often multiple threads running on the same topic and it usually sorts itself out without MN interfering.

If you want precedent, often also the second op says oh oops and asks for their thread to be removed to simplify the discussion.

RareGoalsVerge · 30/08/2025 08:38

So 100+ years ago, if John realises he is attracted only to men and wants sexual relationships with men, he is nevertheless pressured by society's cultural mores to emulate heterosexuality and finds Mary, who is a nice girl and doesn't mind that he's not that passionate about her, and they marry and have a good life. Any everyone today can see how sad it is that he couldn't live as his true self.

Nowadays, John realises he is attracted only to men and wants sexual relationships with men, and society is cool with that. But Nadia who is pissed off at being objectified and pornified by society due to her female body sees that men get a way better life and opts in to that and declares herself to be a man, called Fred. But Fred is still attracted to males so is a gay man, albeit with a female body. And John ispressured by society's cultural mores to accept Fred's spiritual maleness and accept Fred as a potential sexual partner, and being actually homosexual is still just as unacceptable as it was 100 years ago, but now society regards it as sinful to even point out the hypocrisy.

I don't think the exceptional status of pubs will save the pub here @MissAnthropic. Even under the regulations you quote, it would be illegal for a pub to be for whites-only to avoid a potential for racial conflict, or to ban muslims because of a danger of a fight breaking out with islamophobic customers. This would be in the same category. The group of gay men are being excluded for having the temerity to refuse to accept that a female person can be a gay man - ie discriminating because they are actually gay.

MyAmpleSheep · 30/08/2025 08:44

@MissAnthropic

you wrote:

Obviously, “Gender Critical” views do not meet that criteria, but we live under a judiciary that has ruled that they do and we have to deal with the consequences until that gets fixed.)

Five justices of the Supreme Court including its president and deputy president unanimously wrote in FWS that Forstater was a “comprehensive and impressive judgment”. So, noting that you hold the opposite opinion, I point out that their opinion of Forstater is the one that counts and this “wrong” is not going to get fixed any time soon, sorry!

Firealarm1414 · 30/08/2025 08:44

Well at least they are going after the men now too. That should put an end to this nonsense pretty sharpish.

MyAmpleSheep · 30/08/2025 08:46

Igneococcus · 30/08/2025 07:55

(For a belief to be considered a protected characteristic it must be cogent, serious, cohesive, and important, and it must be worthy of respect in a democratic society, not incompatible with human dignity, and not conflict with the fundamental rights of others.
Obviously, “Gender Critical” views do not meet that criteria, but we live under a judiciary that has ruled that they do and we have to deal with the consequences until that gets fixed.)

Not obvious to me at all.

@Igneococcus

You are in good company - see my prior post.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 30/08/2025 09:45

MyAmpleSheep · 30/08/2025 08:46

@Igneococcus

You are in good company - see my prior post.

Indeed.
We just need to remember that IncelsRus are spending quite a lot of time on this board seething, needling and blaming.

Poor things. Sad times.

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