How to Actually be Gender Non Conforming

[OuterSpaceCadet]

There seems to be some confusion out there over what constitutes being gender non conforming / deconstructing gender.

I thought a list might be a handy resource to direct posters to (those who are so keen to explain at length but less inclined to read the board first in order to understand what feminists think about gender or indeed anything).

So what are meaningful ways in which a man or woman can deconstruct gender or be gender non conforming sometimes?

And I mean real ways that actually have an impact beyond visual. Not length of hair. Not possession of moobs or mastectomy. Not choice of shoe.

Just to poinr out that fashion plays a part in gender conformity. For example, the comments about long hair being gender conforming and short hair being non conforming.

I grew up in the decade when pretty much all my school mates had short hair. I was clearning out a cupboard the other week and came across an old school photo of my secondary school in the 1950s. It was so noticeable that the vast majority had short hair. The few that had long hair had plaits. No one had the long past the shoulder hair that is so 'gender conforming' of today.

innate traits is not stereotyping. We can’t help innate traits, we can help stereotype though.

Stereotyping is saying you can’t do DIY, it’s a manly thing. Well there is zero reason physical or mental why I can’t climb a ladder and paint a room. Stereotyping is that women wear make up and men don’t. No reason for it whatsoever, just convention. Men used to wear make up centuries ago but fashions changed. Boys wear blue, girls wear pink- why? 200 years ago it was the opposite.

there are however, very proven psychological differences in male and female behaviour - our brains are wired differently in some respects. That isn’t stereotyping though. You can take steps mitigate that behaviour such as single sex schools to remove the influence of boys on girls. STEM subjects in themselves are not gender specific.

Yes, I’m usually with the same class of people: working/middle class. But some places I’ve lived have really been gender conforming (Essex and around Sunderland/middlesborough) but rural Gloucestershire and north Wales, not so much.
Maybe it’s rural vs urban.

Gender non-conformity just means doing what pleases you, no matter whether society (whichever society you find yourself in) feels it matches your sex or not.

With addendum that it is gender conforming, not gender-non-conforming to attempt to conform to the societal expectations of the other sex - because whilst for you, personally you might be defying society's expectations for your sex, you are re-enforcing those expected of the other sex.

I’m not at all convinced that the particular difference you’re describing is innate. There may be an observable effect due to being raised in a still-gendered environment with expectations around how girls and boys should behave - neuroplasticity is real. Girls in girls schools are freed (to some extent) from that ‘nurture’.
I think what you’ve done is expose two different gender constraints which can reinforce each other. The idea women aren’t good at science and maths - it should be outdated but sadly persists. And another, which is that girls are supposed to defer to other peoples opinions more than boys are.

My daughter loves maths and every year at school I need to highlight it to them and tell them to encourage and challenge her on it, precisely because of that additional support in enjoying and being good at something that's not really seen as for girls. It's still not seen as a 'girl' thing (never mind it not being a 'cool' thing - a double dunt for little girls who like it).

Good point also about taking the lead and public performing - even just advocating for myself is hard. Part of that is personality but how much of that personality is down to 'seen and not heard' and girls being discouraged from speaking up for themselves? People really hate when women advocate for themselves in any way.

Agree - we can observe differences in the brain but there are more differences between individuals than between the sexes. And just because we can observe differences doesn't mean we always know exactly why those differences are there or what it means. It's just often used by society - including academia - to justify pre-existing beliefs about those differences.

Length of hair is probably affected by the availability of washing facilities. Relatively few homes had more than one family bathroom - bath not shower - until the 1980s. Drying long hair was a faff. Hairdryers were expensive. I and most of my classmates in the sixties had short hair because of this (and we were relatively affluent, with a separate shower room used by my father and brothers).

I earn 10 x what my husband does - that feels quite gender non-conforming. Certainly people assume he would earn more than me, even at work. So people are surprised that I'm not wildly wealthy as they think I must have an even higher earning husband somewhere. I also remember when I had to say to nursery we weren't eligible for the free hours the manager said "your husband must earn a lot".

I have low self esteem and am constantly embarrassed by the way I look - that feels quite gender conforming (sadly).

It is interesting to see how society plays in. My son's favourite colour was pink and he liked anything bright and sparkly until he started school when he swiftly fell in line with the other boys and now wears sludgy colours. All part of life I guess.

I defy gender expectations every time I live my life fully and unapologetically. Why? I'm a fat woman. Instead of knowing my place at the bottom of the food chain and remaining as much out of view as possible I am opinionated, successful and active in public life. I even go swimming in a swimsuit without a frilly skirt.

Surely "gender" is nothing more than stereotypes which relate to sex?

The stereotype that women get emotional as a result of hormonal fluctuations over the course of a month is incredibly closely linked to biology.

The stereotype of women staying at home whilst men go out to work is also closely linked to biology, but less so. It is obvious that the partner whose body needs to recover from pregnancy and childbirth, and who can breast feed, is the one who it makes more sense to stay home, which makes it more likely.

There is the stereotype of women doing more cooking and cleaning than their husband. To some extent this stereotype is a natural consequence of the stereotype that women are more likely to be at home due to their child.

There is the stereotypical dirty slut, and there is the stereotypical boring conservative housewife who has no interests or value other than her caring responsibilities.

Then there are the stereotypes such as short hair no make-up is right for men, and vice versa. Nothing whatsoever to do with biology.

It seems to me that (to generalize) TWs are happy to adopt the stereotypes that are ultimately meaningless (long hair and make-up and dresses). And they are happy to adopt any stereotype that relates directly to biology - pretending to have fluctuating hormones, pretending to breast feed - as that is validating. They are happy to adopt sexualized stereotypes - to play the role of a slut (in their fantasies at least), the role of an expectant hole.

I have never really seen any evidence of TW taking the stereotypical selfless caring role, where a woman's whole life goes on hold for months or years or even decades in order to make life as good as possible for a parent, partner or child. They don't seem to fall into the stereotype of running around flustered making three different meals because DC1 and DC2 like different food and DP doesn't get home til late.

TW seem to me to be very much men who simultaneously conform to many male stereotypes, whilst also conforming to many wrong-sex gender stereotypes. The stereotypes that are abandoned tend to be the difficult male stereotypes (protector and provider), and the stereotypes not adopted are the difficult female ones (like putting others first, stepping up and taking the caring role).

TW are simultaneously very much gender conforming (to two genders), whilst having aspects of male and female gender non-conformity... and every which way you look the TW is on the "winning side" - it's all about the advantages and never about the disadvantages.

My friends 21yo DD can piss standing up (she's been able to do it since being a toddler) but she's female and not gender non conforming.

Beyond that I'm out of ideas!!

Gender doesn’t exist so it can be neither constructed nor deconstructed.

There was a study posted on another thread about the way that crying is discouraged in boys and men from the age of about eleven. I'm interested in counteracting that influence on my son but I'm not sure the best way to go about that.

I don't buy presents and cards for my husband's family, I let him take care of that, which he does. I guess that makes us both gender non-conforming 😂

Yes, I live in Liverpool.....and the typical 'Scouse' girl look is very glamorous and full on...and many have their separate 'girls night out' on Friday, then it is couples on Saturday; the men go to the football; the women tend not to be interested; women rule the roost at home and motherhood and family are central.

I find this a strange one as women are relentlessly mocked for crying.

Who is mocking you for crying? I am not sure I agree with you here.

Women are mocked for crying. Emotional, unstable, hysterical, have the pish ripped out of them.

Women are despised generally for being weak and hysterical, I don't think I'd see that as being mocked for crying. I think we're expected to cry.

Probably just us differing in how we understand what mocking is though.

Not as much as a man would be, maybe! But actually, a man crying is so unusual that I think most people would have no sensible response to it. Or maybe they'd take it as "This is a very very important issue to this man" where if it were a women crying, they'd think "This woman is just making things difficult".

A friend once commented that I was more like a man as I hate opera, musicals and had a hatred of tidying 🤷🏻‍♀️

Be post menopausal and grow a beard.
Personal experience.

Did this person know many women?

So I guess I'm interpreting 'gender conforming' as 'conforming to the social gender stereotypes from the 50s of a SAHM who focuses on her looks, her cooking and her children while the working dad focuses on baseball and making money'. Or whatever variant of that stereotypes you might encounter.

So the majority of the things that women are doing every day does not conform to that stereotype.

But more importantly, it is possible to choose to deliberately confound the stereotypes and thus break them down so they no longer work. So that my kids don't grow up with the idea that mums can't do DIY or that dads can't be caring.