How to Actually be Gender Non Conforming

[OuterSpaceCadet]

There seems to be some confusion out there over what constitutes being gender non conforming / deconstructing gender.

I thought a list might be a handy resource to direct posters to (those who are so keen to explain at length but less inclined to read the board first in order to understand what feminists think about gender or indeed anything).

So what are meaningful ways in which a man or woman can deconstruct gender or be gender non conforming sometimes?

And I mean real ways that actually have an impact beyond visual. Not length of hair. Not possession of moobs or mastectomy. Not choice of shoe.

I don't really think there are any as such? But maybe I don't understand your question.

Some women do or are interested in things, or have qualities, that are statistically more common for men. Like, being welders. Is that the kind of thing you are thinking of?

If so I don't think there is anything that is inherently either positive or negative about being gender non-conforming. It's fine to be sort of statistically usual in terms of your sex, and it's fine not to be.

Know your child's shoe size?

Know your wife's bra size?

Take your space fully if you’re a woman.
Ask questions and listen to the answers if you’re a man.

You don’t need to do anything because gender is made up. Nothing is intrinsically gendered.

If you wear makeup or build a shed you aren’t conforming or not conforming to anything, you’re just doing a thing.

Prof Jo Phoenix wrote an article for the Philosophers' Magazine titled Biological Sex, Gender Criticism and Feminist Criminology. In it she says:

"The concept of gender has a privileged place within feminist scholarship. Generations of feminist social scientists have argued that in patriarchal societies, women’s oppression is related to the social roles they occupy as a result of the sexual division of labour (i.e. the social roles connected with childcare and care of older relatives) and the normative expectations placed upon women when occupying those roles. Within this schema gender becomes the ideologies that render the socially constructed nature of women’s oppression invisible by portraying it as linked to biological essences."

DS3 has always had a tendency to enjoy “ girls” interests, toys and hobbies, it caused him social problems right through school ( he was a bit lost at break when all the other boy’s were playing football). His sport of choice was horse riding. He concentrated on art at school ( only boy in art class by S5), textiles at college ( again only boy), he’s now at art school studying fashion, at last he has male friends who share his interests!
So I’d say cultivating your artistic side, enjoying colour and dressing up makes you gender non conforming if you’re a boy, particularly a straight boy

Find out what you are good at and what you enjoy and do it, regardless of whether it's socially coded "masculine", "feminine" or neither. (It's like being cool: the coolest people are the ones who don't care whether they're cool or not.)
Support other people to do the same.
Don't "gender nonconform" in ways you don't want to, so as to be seen not conforming; that's just conformity of another sort. It's something you should feel free to do, not something you should feel obliged to perform.

as a woman, I am gender non-conforming by

• always wearing jeans / trousers and never makeup
• working as a scientist with long hours and plenty of travel
• living in a household that avoids gender stereotyping as much as possible
• doing all the diy and fixing stuff at home with the help of my DDs

I suppose my dad was in the 80s, he was a SAHD who did all the cleaning, laundry, most of the cooking, all school runs, bought the ballet shoes etc and took us to classes/brownies etc while mum earned all the cash.

This

I was defying gender stereotypes at school by being the only girl in my A level chemistry and physics classes and one of two doing double maths. Between us we always beat the boys - they don’t have any innate superiority, there was no good reason for the imbalance.

No, but what is important is that we live in a society which is sufficiently equal that we’re allowed to do what we want to do rather than being compelled to abide by artificial gender roles and stereotypes.
If I’d been born a generation or two earlier I couldn’t have done what I wanted with my life.

This liberation from ‘gender’ is still a work in progress, and is pushed back against by some.

It's made up, but it's "real" in that it has a real impact on everyone's perception and self-concept. Even amongst those of us who think it is harmful and that it is bollocks.

When you chose "wear make up" and "build a shed" as your examples you knew which one was gendered masculine and which feminine. So I think it's possible to understand that gender is an invention, but also understand that "gender non conforming" is meaningful to pretty much every person currently living in a gendered society.

I guess it depends how much you believe that "Men are from Mars; women are from Venus", which I suspect most posters in this folder don't believe at all.

@OuterSpaceCadet I don't really believe in the idea of gender, especially not nowadays. All of us have a sex, and we're that sex. I'm an adult female full stop.

I don't think a list would be helpful. Most of us are already 'gender nonconformists' without even trying.

I agree. But how does it help to make any sort of list, when both men and women wear make up and build sheds?

I have cropped short hair, never wear make up or dresses and skirts. I once sat with a room of girlfriends watching Beaches and thinking that it was the biggest load of shite I had ever seen, while everyone else was ugly crying.

I am not gender non-conforming. I am a perfect average, conventional member of the female sex with my own likes and dislikes. I am not special. I don’t need a stupid label.

Edited as posted on the wrong thread

I always thought gender was a word to replace sex as a biological state because sex is also something you do/have.
I had a train set and during the 70's it was so unusual for girls to have one the shopkeeper thought it was for my dad and nearly fell over when he was told it was for me. I used to get on with boys better than girls at school. Have never liked pink and always had bruises on my shins. I'm the tech minded one, not my husband, and I'm as good at DIY as he is and can have a good ol' political discussion with anyone - if they want one of course.
None of this "women do this men do that" makes sense. You're interested in what you're interested in. Although men do generally have an odd sense of humour. Maybe that's why there are so many trans women who like taking photos of themselves in ladies loos.

I'm not sure I understand the purpose? Are you suggesting that we compile a list of things we can deliberately make ourselves do that are stereotypically associated with the opposite sex? So, if I'm invited on a spa day, I should refuse and go to the football, whether I want to or not? I should steer my sons towards caring roles and my daughters towards construction?
Because I think this sort of contrived 'deconstruction' is as restrictive as conforming to gender stereotypes in the first place. I think its more helpful to develop self awareness so we understand ourselves, our interests and passions, and self confidence so we can pursue them, while working together to remove barriers to doing so. Ploughing through a list of activities someone decided are 'for men' is trading one set of instructions for another.

Saying a woman is gender non comforming for having short hair, wearing no make up and being a welder is the same argument as a trans identifying man saying they gender conforming for having long hair and being a nurse.

Some TRA will respond by saying the woman is nonbinary or a TM and is closeted.

Other TRA will say trans ideology doesnt claim long hair = woman, so its a 'strawman argument ' and bang on about HRT. Their argument will be that terfs dont notice a long haired tim nurse.

Totally agree. I might not fully understand the post but it reads (to me) like I should be feeling guilty about liking things like spa days, shopping, bouncy curls in my hair, and I will not. I like them because I like them, just as I like racing cars (which I will no doubt get a pat on the back for). Hate DIY tho and won’t do it, because ya know, im “gender conforming” or summat 🤷‍♀️

Ignore the made up crap that is 'gender'. Have a fully rounded personality and do whatever makes you happy.

I like clothes and perfume, have lots of pretty dresses, fashionable shoes and occasion wear. I like children (I have two of my own, and two grandchildren), and quite enjoy housework in moderation (never had a cleaner). My hair is currently quite long, though it’s been all lengths, including very short crops.

I have a degree in a STEM subject; I’m interested in technology and teach it. When I was younger I spent some years doing a heavy duty manual job that’s very male dominated. I’m strong and like sport; I have a coaching qualification in one. I often wear jeans, hoodies and trainers.

I’m just a woman with a well-rounded personality and diverse interests.