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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Your Corbyn/Sultana Party - Discussion thread

1000 replies

fromorbit · 19/08/2025 08:38

The new left party is going to have significant implications for gender and sex discussions on the left in the UK and in wider political debate as well. Lets talk about it.

Four of its prospective MPs are Gaza independents whose votes and comments in the Commons indicate a social conservative background . One of them Adnan Hussain has already got into a row on X with prospective members over his social conservatism.

The hilarious breakdown of the Islamo-left alliance
The progressive left has suddenly noticed that most British Muslims are not exactly woke.
This uneasy marriage got a reality check last week when a Green Party councillor and practising Muslim, Mothin Ali, appeared reluctant to sign a set of ‘pledges’ on behalf of the LGBTQIA+ Greens, Feminist Greens and other similar groups. The MP for Blackburn, ‘Gaza Independent’ Adnan Hussain, then waded into the debate. ‘It’s no secret that Muslims tend to be socially conservative’, Hussain said. ‘Is there a space on the left to create a broad enough church to allow Muslims an authentic space, just as it does other minority groups?’
https://www.spiked-online.com/2025/08/04/the-hilarious-breakdown-of-the-islamo-left-alliance/

The initial statement for Your Party focuses on poverty, fighting the system and Gaza, but makes no mention of progressive social issues, . This already signals something significant.
https://www.yourparty.uk/statement

Zarah Sultana on the other hand has already signaled out trans rights as a key principal in a recent interview which has received push back from others. Discussion here:

The Elephant in the Room for Zara Sultana’s “Your Party”
https://labourheartlands.com/the-elephant-in-the-room/
But here’s the rub. Sultana also pledged to “resolutely” advocate for a pro-trans socialist programme. She insists these discussions must happen openly and democratically.

That sounds fine in theory. In practice, the left has already shown itself utterly incapable of having this conversation without collapsing into authoritarian cancel culture.

Can the Left Have an Honest Trans Debate Without Cancelling Women?

For years, women who raise legitimate questions about the impact of gender self-ID on female-only spaces, or about the safeguarding implications highlighted by the Cass Review, have been branded as bigots and driven out of the movement. “Demonising trans people” is often code for “asking difficult but necessary questions.” If Your Party repeats this mistake, it will bleed support from countless socialist women before it even begins.

The truth is, many women will not get involved in this project precisely because of the Corbyn–Sultana line on trans issues. Others may hope the problem quietly goes away. It won’t. Nor is this a side issue: women’s rights are not negotiable add-ons to socialism; they are foundational. To ignore them is to build on sand.

TAs online and who are planning to join are already girding up for war, it is looking messy.

I can see a number of factions inside the new party who are going to make things complicated:

Muslim social conservatives - as mentioned they will be a major part of the party's voting bloc.

Old school Marxists who regard gender ideology as neo liberal capitalist identity politics and a distraction from class.

Realists who will see gender stuff as a marginal issue which needs to be sidelined because it is so toxic and unpopular with the general public.

Last but certainly not least actual left wing feminists who see through gender nonsense and are not going to be quiet about it !!

I expect fireworks over gender at the the party's initial conference supposedly to be held in November. TAs will attempt to make genderism a key principal of the party and will face resistance. Whether it happens or not it will be another nail in the TAs attempt to pretend the left inherently back neoliberal capitalist ideas like genderism. The big terfy mother elephant is going to be at the conference because women keep doing awkward things like existing and saying things.

Corbyn's position is going to be a focus in this because for all his occasional signalling on trans issues like stating pronouns and saying mantras it is not a core issue for him, and moreover he doesn't believe in it narrowly . His circles have long contained gender critical people who he has refused to cancel, because Corbyn for all his faults believes in open debate. So I think this could be a wedge issue between those around Sultana and Corbyn. There are already signs of disagreements between them over other issues like antisemitism:
Sultana: Corbyn 'capitulated' on antisemitism definition
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c79lr40rqelo

Statement — Your Party

https://www.yourparty.uk/statement

OP posts:
Thread gallery
97
CleopatraSelene · 30/09/2025 23:22

SionnachRuadh · 30/09/2025 08:38

I was just thinking of journalism, which these days is more of a gig job, not the steady union job it was in the Fleet Street days.

But that's also shifted, because while you always had a sprinkling of Boris Johnson types, it used to be a job where bright working class kids could start in the provincial papers and then move up to the nationals. Nowadays the provincial papers are dying, that old career path is gone, it's a graduate job, the BBC is the behemoth that employs most of the profession, and good luck getting into the BBC if you don't have a Russell Group degree.

You can see the difference with the old school journos, say aged 50 and up, who came in the old way. They usually have much better instincts.

I knew Gloria De Piero in a previous life, and am still fond of her, and I thought it was very revealing that she never made the impact as an MP that she should have. Because I think Labour just conceptualised her as "that glamorous woman from breakfast TV", and she is a great communicator, but it was more important that she'd grown up poor in Bradford, from a second generation immigrant background, and that never left her and she was very much about representing her working class Red Wall constituents. My theory is that the PLP had become so gentrified they literally didn't know what to do with her.

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Really sad, she deserved much better. Was also treated awfully by Sun etc but being ignored by the party must have been much more of a betrayal.

CleopatraSelene · 30/09/2025 23:31

TempestTost · 30/09/2025 12:16

I think the underlying issue with "what is the wc stuff is that when push comes to shove, Marxist analysis is a bit shit. And I don't mean because of "I have wc cultural roots so I feel wc" I am not talking about culture but economics.

One issue is that to a significant extent, 20th century movements to improve conditions of the wc were pretty effective, and many of those people are effectivly now "middle class" which is a differernt thing, neither properly wc nor capitalists/owners, but actually both. Yes, most sell their labour and work for employers, but they also have pensions, investments, even access to government benefits, all of which are tied to the market. This looks a little differernt depending on what country you live in, but it's consistently the case across the west. So these people in some ways can be at the mercy of exploitation from employers but also have a real interest in capital doing well. Minimum wage laws or rules about sector negotiations etc also are part of this. Interests are not so divided as they were in the 18th century.

There is still a sector of people like many waiters, gig workers, shop workers, etc, who typically do not have investments through a job, usually can't afford them, don't own significant assets like a home, and don't have labour representation. This people seem to count for nothing in the union movement which is now pretty "professional" and mostly looks out for the interests of professional people - see covid for examples.

The other factor, concretely, is that Marxism has been an utter and massive failure wherever it was attempted. Resulting in what I think we could all agree is much worse outcomes for workers, including outright slavery where it was for "the good of the state". Where have attempts at this worked - not Russia. Not China. Not South or Central America. Precisely, nowhere. All places where many people defect(ed) to the west when they can.

I know some will say these weren't real attempts at Marxism because they all involve peasant populations, but that in itself is telling. Why don't we see Marxist history happening in industrialised nations as predicted? I'll tell you why, because his vision of history came right out of his ass and is a load of shit.

I actually don't think to be on the left you need to be a Marxist. There are other leftist movements that were not - you have a huge tradition of leftist Catholic thought for example which includes the social encyclicals, the Antigonish Movement, the Catholic Workers Movement, and the kind of small producer based approaches of people like Chesterton (which would not have called themselves left but were looking at the problem of domination of workers by huge powerful interests, be they capital or "the state".)

The reason a lot of people who think of themselves as the radical left have now become wedded to identity politics is because they see these groups, who they believe to be outcasts "equity seeking groups" are the new proletariat as it were, the people who need structural changes to society in order to create equatable social and economic benefits. If that means giving people jobs or scholarships or social advantages based on these characteristics, that is no differernt in their minds than progressive taxation. Fundamentally though that points to a kind or reification in the way they see these groups, which is why it tends to gender essentialism, race essetialism, and so on.

That's so true about Marxism. Fundamentally Marx had some useful insights but I think he's like Freud : huge amounts of destructive & overgeneralised ideas, still has a cult of personality which far exceeds how useful his theory is practically, and much of his work applies as you said to a very different world.

A lot of people talk about wokeness & gender ideology etc being religious in nature which is true, imo, but also that's hardly new. The way both Freudianism & Marxism (as well as many other ideas/movements) developed was very similar to a religion.

Re Catholicism & leftism, that's a good point & lots of useful ideas have come from that area.

It's worth noting that some areas of Catholicism have been linked with Marxism for a while (liberation theology obvs, but also Catholic leftists who thought Marx had some useful ideas but didn't buy his whole theory) and thjs seems to be increasing now. Eg. The magazine Compact which varies in ideology depending on the author but overall pushes a hybrid of conservative Catholicism & Marxism. Overall this is more of a US thing I think (just as well, all things considered..)

CleopatraSelene · 30/09/2025 23:34

timesublimelysilencesthewhys · 30/09/2025 08:53

BT and the old utility companies also used to be an excellent way for the working class to be trained for a good career.

These companies arent the employers they once were, and they tend to employ graduate rather than school leavers. But given so many people have degrees, i dont know if they are employing different people, if that makes sense. The school leavers they trained 30 or 40 years ago have degrees now.

The job market has changed so much now. Both the companies and the workforce, and having a degree isnt an indication of class.

I think working/middle class is a combination of somewheres/anywheres and how tied someone is to minimum pay work.

Agree mostly: but how useful is the 'minimum pay' element if a lot of the working class are earning more than the middle class?

CleopatraSelene · 30/09/2025 23:37

Shortshriftandlethal · 30/09/2025 08:51

My hairdresser is a working class woman who has done very well for herself and lives a very confortable life. She is a very skilled and talented stylist; works hard and has a good business brain. She owns her own salon |( the actual building, not just a lease), employs staff and gives training opportunities to young girls who have just left school. She owns her own home and takes multiple foreign and domestic trips every year.

Her partner is an ex plumber who now does bitcoin and currency trading full time. They aim to buy a holiday home in Europe ( something I as a teacher could only ever dream of).

I also know of other working class families who have started their own business running a chain of child day care nurseries, for example), or a tatoo equipment supply company..or a motor mechanic business....who are now really quite wealthy....living in very desirable homes in leafy suburbs and who have lifestyles not available to many who have been to university and are now working in the gig economy, or in low paid service jobs.

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That's good : it's cheering to read about thriving businesses. Also nice to read about a female hairdresser owning a business : I read a while ago that hairdressing businesses were more likely to be owned by men than women partly because many male hairdressers are gay & thus less likely to have kids, whereas female hairdressers are often too busy with their kids to do that (not that that's an issue as such).

CleopatraSelene · 30/09/2025 23:40

Shortshriftandlethal · 30/09/2025 08:51

My hairdresser is a working class woman who has done very well for herself and lives a very confortable life. She is a very skilled and talented stylist; works hard and has a good business brain. She owns her own salon |( the actual building, not just a lease), employs staff and gives training opportunities to young girls who have just left school. She owns her own home and takes multiple foreign and domestic trips every year.

Her partner is an ex plumber who now does bitcoin and currency trading full time. They aim to buy a holiday home in Europe ( something I as a teacher could only ever dream of).

I also know of other working class families who have started their own business running a chain of child day care nurseries, for example), or a tatoo equipment supply company..or a motor mechanic business....who are now really quite wealthy....living in very desirable homes in leafy suburbs and who have lifestyles not available to many who have been to university and are now working in the gig economy, or in low paid service jobs.

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Good point also re the contrast with the graduate gig economy. Though as you say some gig workers are using it between other things or older people who want more flexibility,so they would have presumably more options than a traditional working class person would have.

TempestTost · 01/10/2025 00:02

TruckDiver · 30/09/2025 22:10

Well that's much more like my definition, which is apparently "ideological", so it's a whole different discussion from those who insist on defining WC by culture and heritage, regardless of their economic situation, as others here have.

If Labour doesn't represent the economic interests of these people, is there another party who you believe represents them better?

I think peopel believe your definition is ideological because you are making certain ideological assumptions about the interests of those people being with the Labour Party, and also how they relate to other classes. Maybe I am misunderstanding them however.

I would say that the Tories and Reform are clearly making an effort to appeal to the interests and values of this group, and with some success. Look at Brexit, or limiting immigration - both traditionally leftist ideas because of the impacts on workers. Now embraced by Labour as they are good for the professional classes. Reform is really the only group taking the old position up - otherwise there is no one except maybe communists representing their interests.

It really shouldn't be a shock that the working classes are interested in a party talking about traditional working class policy ideas.

TempestTost · 01/10/2025 00:23

CleopatraSelene · 30/09/2025 23:21

Yes, journalists often used to have more life experience and it showed.

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Yes, my grandfather was a journalist, he was a signaller in the navy, fought in WWII and Korea, then worked at a paper covering all the local politics, wrote a literary humour columns, political satire for a sort of Private Eye type magazine, and did book reviews and poetry.

He was a very hard boiled, reflexively cynical about any kind of authority, fad, or claim to insight, and very educated man, he had read everything. His education was not so much lesser than an academic education, but just very differernt in kind. And it was a very valuable kind of education, it offered a lot to society and was an important balance to more academic education.

There don't seem to be so many people like that any more. I don't feel like there is an equivalent, I don't see that many people who are so literate without formal education which was at one time common. In fact a lot of the university grads don't seem particularly literate!

CleopatraSelene · 01/10/2025 01:04

Maybe a protest party - not the political kind though. It just seems like a lot of spoilt airheads at the moment....

Ereshkigalangcleg · 01/10/2025 08:55

TruckDiver · 30/09/2025 23:08

So it's like a kind of generational hangover - "Working class" originally meant (among other things) that you were among the poorest class of society. Now we still call people working class even when they're quite wealthy, if they grew up poor because their parents were working class in the original sense.

What would you say is the policy implication of what you've written here? If a party wants to appeal to or serve the interests of the working class, what does the fact of that class having experienced poverty, even if they're not poor now, mean that party should do?

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People have explained to you what the problem is with parties like Labour and the type of out of touch issues they prioritise. The working class are not defined by their ideology. Many are socially conservative, but not all. Most people are to some extent, regardless of class. Many working class people also don’t believe in benefits culture either, because often they have had to work hard and suffer disadvantages for whatever amount they have. It’s galling to then see people manipulating a weak system. You can obviously apply that to migration as well.

rriffraff · 01/10/2025 13:19

It seems like with Labour at 17% and Farage at 33%, Tories at 15% in the polls that it seems like the 'middle' has failed, globalism had been a disaster for Britain and so things are going extreme Left and extreme Right.

Starmer said the Tories were irrelvent but they are only 2% behind.

On the Left I don't think that the pro-Palestine supporters in the party and the young, pro-Trans/women's rights side can hold together and so I think it will split to-

The Greens - pro trans mainly middle class white voters and some students
Corbyn/Sultana Party - mainly students and urban voters/muslim voters.

Perhaps they will end up in a coalition of Left wing parties to defeat the Right.

Lalgarh · 01/10/2025 17:06

Your Party registered with Corbyn as sole leader, nominated by Adnan Hussein.

Assets of £855k

https://nitter.net/charliemansell/status/1973417045887721833#m

TruckDiver · 01/10/2025 17:09

Ereshkigalangcleg · 01/10/2025 08:55

People have explained to you what the problem is with parties like Labour and the type of out of touch issues they prioritise. The working class are not defined by their ideology. Many are socially conservative, but not all. Most people are to some extent, regardless of class. Many working class people also don’t believe in benefits culture either, because often they have had to work hard and suffer disadvantages for whatever amount they have. It’s galling to then see people manipulating a weak system. You can obviously apply that to migration as well.

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I'm aware of which issues WC people don't like Labour prioritising. My question was which ones they would want prioritised instead.

Cutting immigration is the obvious one which practically everyone has said. So to that you'd add cutting the welfare state?

CleopatraSelene · 01/10/2025 17:12

SionnachRuadh · 26/09/2025 12:04

I can't imagine Tories ever getting elected in the East End, and Reform would struggle too, but maybe the wave of the future is Muslim politicians with a low-tax pro-business pro-motorist agenda.

And Labour have just appointed Shabana Mahmood, who openly says she wants to castrate nonces, as Home Secretary.

I don't think this is what the white left imagined would be the result of British Muslims getting into politics.

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Are you sure the voluntary chemical castration idea is good? I like Shabana a lot but I think this is a slippery slope.

She has said she is investigating mandatory castration. I think voluntary would be a good idea if it stays that way, but what if it doesn't?

What if it then expands to rapists, murderers, then those falsely accused potentially or people who are inconvenient to the government? We know castration makes men more docile, what if the government starts getting men who question wrongdoing in prison on charges of rape or child abuse and castrates them?

It's like the death penalty, giving the government that level of power & irreversible punishment is very risky.

Simular principle to assisted dying, sterilisation. Shabana can see the danger of government overreach in assisted dying, she should see it here too.

CleopatraSelene · 01/10/2025 17:14

Plus is a pro motorists culture really good? Too many cars are having an impact on children playing out & on pollution levels. Plus like it or not, climate change SHOULD be a consideration.

SionnachRuadh · 01/10/2025 17:43

What if it then expands to rapists, murderers, then those falsely accused potentially or people who are inconvenient to the government? We know castration makes men more docile, what if the government starts getting men who question wrongdoing in prison on charges of rape or child abuse and castrates them?

Are you trying to put me on the spot as to whether or not I endorse this very far fetched scenario that you've just made up? "What if" is doing an awful lot of work for you there.

CleopatraSelene · 01/10/2025 17:54

SionnachRuadh · 01/10/2025 17:43

What if it then expands to rapists, murderers, then those falsely accused potentially or people who are inconvenient to the government? We know castration makes men more docile, what if the government starts getting men who question wrongdoing in prison on charges of rape or child abuse and castrates them?

Are you trying to put me on the spot as to whether or not I endorse this very far fetched scenario that you've just made up? "What if" is doing an awful lot of work for you there.

No. I don't think it's any more far fetched than euthanasia and digital ID having very bad consequences.

There us evidence chemicals in the water are affecting T levels. Could the government have a motive to increase docility?

TempestTost · 01/10/2025 18:17

TruckDiver · 01/10/2025 17:09

I'm aware of which issues WC people don't like Labour prioritising. My question was which ones they would want prioritised instead.

Cutting immigration is the obvious one which practically everyone has said. So to that you'd add cutting the welfare state?

Show quote history

Immigration. More investment in local infrastructure, especially where it will boost business. Investment in local business including small business. Better public education, apprenticeship schemes. Politics out of schools. Effective local policing. More effective health services - they are not wedded to the NHS model.Protection of and investment in domestic manufacturing.

As far as the welfare state, possibly something closer to the Scandinavian countries.

Original poster
fromorbit · 01/10/2025 20:27

Sienna Rodgers
https://x.com/siennamarla/status/1973415044768538632

So, Your Party has been registered & Corbyn listed as leader, which has upset some critics. I'm told:

– This is an interim arrangement, just for registration
– Models of leadership will be decided at the founding conference

Sienna Rodgers (@siennamarla) on X

So, Your Party has been registered & Corbyn listed as leader, which has upset some critics. I'm told: – This is an interim arrangement, just for registration – Models of leadership will be decided at the founding conference 🧵

https://x.com/siennamarla/status/1973415044768538632

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 01/10/2025 20:44

TruckDiver · 01/10/2025 17:09

I'm aware of which issues WC people don't like Labour prioritising. My question was which ones they would want prioritised instead.

Cutting immigration is the obvious one which practically everyone has said. So to that you'd add cutting the welfare state?

Show quote history

I’m trying to explain the thoughts as best I can of a group of people who, though probably the majority, appear completely alien to you. They’re not a hive mind though so there will be a range of views, as with anything.

TruckDiver · 01/10/2025 22:51

TempestTost · 01/10/2025 18:17

Immigration. More investment in local infrastructure, especially where it will boost business. Investment in local business including small business. Better public education, apprenticeship schemes. Politics out of schools. Effective local policing. More effective health services - they are not wedded to the NHS model.Protection of and investment in domestic manufacturing.

As far as the welfare state, possibly something closer to the Scandinavian countries.

Show quote history

Obviously with the caveat that you can't speak for everyone, but just from your knowledge of the WC demographic you see wanting these things:

Would they be prepared to pay the levels of tax necessary to achieve them? Particularly the part about Scandinavian-model welfare.

CleopatraSelene · 02/10/2025 00:52

TruckDiver · 01/10/2025 22:51

Obviously with the caveat that you can't speak for everyone, but just from your knowledge of the WC demographic you see wanting these things:

Would they be prepared to pay the levels of tax necessary to achieve them? Particularly the part about Scandinavian-model welfare.

Show quote history

I think people wanting lower taxes is in large part bc no natter how much we pay services only seem to get worse.

TempestTost · 02/10/2025 01:17

TruckDiver · 01/10/2025 22:51

Obviously with the caveat that you can't speak for everyone, but just from your knowledge of the WC demographic you see wanting these things:

Would they be prepared to pay the levels of tax necessary to achieve them? Particularly the part about Scandinavian-model welfare.

Show quote history

Scandinavian welfare is more restricted/strict than the UK. For some reason people think it's more laissez-faire, but it isn't.

As someone noted above, most w/c people. while they may appreciate social supports where needed, don't want to see people taking advantage or coasting.

CleopatraSelene · 02/10/2025 01:25

TempestTost · 02/10/2025 01:17

Scandinavian welfare is more restricted/strict than the UK. For some reason people think it's more laissez-faire, but it isn't.

As someone noted above, most w/c people. while they may appreciate social supports where needed, don't want to see people taking advantage or coasting.

Show quote history

Very sensible. We should try that...

RainbowBagels · 02/10/2025 08:34

TempestTost · 02/10/2025 01:17

Scandinavian welfare is more restricted/strict than the UK. For some reason people think it's more laissez-faire, but it isn't.

As someone noted above, most w/c people. while they may appreciate social supports where needed, don't want to see people taking advantage or coasting.

Show quote history

I agree. And I think the reason why Scandinavians dont mind paying so much tax is because more people share the burden, so there is more money, and they can all see where its being spent and get the benefit from it. It's seen as a fairer society not just because they have better State run services but because everyone is expected to contribute unless they absolutely can't.

Shortshriftandlethal · 02/10/2025 09:03

TruckDiver · 01/10/2025 17:09

I'm aware of which issues WC people don't like Labour prioritising. My question was which ones they would want prioritised instead.

Cutting immigration is the obvious one which practically everyone has said. So to that you'd add cutting the welfare state?

Show quote history

I think a lot of working class people do think the benefits system is taken advantage of and that some people take the piss, yes. Most definitely! People who work hard, pay their taxes and do the right thing, do not like to see their neighbours abusing the system.

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