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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

some parallels

604 replies

Manfreglory · 16/08/2025 18:56

I've been teasing out this idea, that transphobia and xenophobia have much in common.

  • both rest on 'you're not from here; your culture is different; you can't know what it is to have grown up 'over here'/had period pains/gone through labour.
  • both reject difference or change in favour of sameness or stasis. 'You look and talk and think differently/you underwent a journey to get here/I can't fully relate to you'.
  • both rest not just on culture but on biology: 'Your genes are different than mine/your genotype for phenotype A, B or C aren't identical to mine'.
  • both are territorial: 'i sweated blood as a member of this sex/to make it in this society - who are you to come here and demand a seat at the table'?
  • both are suspicious of the reasons for transformation. 'You just want the perks of being female; you just want to look up our skirts in the toilet; you just migrated here from Guatemala for financial stability.'
  • both demonize, aggressively overstating the chance that the person has or will commit a crime. (Migrants: no need to give examples, just read the news. Trans people: 'you just want access to 'our spaces'' (i.e. the spaces where women/cis women enjoy their privacy from all men, cis or trans) so you can assault us'.
  • both minimize or even deny, the need for the transition: 'No child is born trans/those parents were homophobic as the kid was just gay/trans women are men with their dicks lopped off/people should stay in their home country and migration is too dangerous'.
  • both hysterically fear that the trans person/migrant will corrupt innocents: 'they will indoctrinate children in school/they will spread religious fundamentalism'.

Gender critical women: ask yourself if you've been radicalized into the new right.

OP posts:
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MurkyWeather · 17/08/2025 21:41

My 'agree' button is overheating🤒

Britinme · 17/08/2025 21:41

Oh he’s flounced? I am disappointed. I’d (seriously) hoped he’d engage with @Catiette’s thoughtful and well written post dissecting his OP, but it’s as if he just won’t engage with it. Ironically the thing that made me GC in the first place was trying to figure out why I must be wrong about TWAW and why we it had to be #nodebate instead of thoughtful analysis.

Waitwhat23 · 17/08/2025 21:41

Manfreglory · 17/08/2025 20:56

sad to see a more powerful group (women) lording it over a less powerful one (trans women). you're not making a good case here.

Men are not a 'less powerful' group than women.

Very incel-y vibe going on there, pal. Are we going to get a chorus of 'women live life on easy mode' next?

Heggettypeg · 17/08/2025 21:42

Manfreglory · 17/08/2025 20:56

sad to see a more powerful group (women) lording it over a less powerful one (trans women). you're not making a good case here.

Sorry mate, but when it comes to the UK this particular narrative won't wash. At least since Stonewall took up the T (and to some extent earlier still), the TRAs have been hand in glove with the establishment here and influencing policy in most major institutions.
Of course it's all coming unstuck now, because the activists overreached themselves and have come up against the law of the land in numerous court cases and tribunals. They're complaining, not because they are oppressed (they aren't), but because they were used to getting their own way and now they're not. Spoilt and mardy.

SionnachRuadh · 17/08/2025 21:44

Igneococcus · 17/08/2025 21:36

I have never read Judith Butler and have no plans to ever do this to myself but I can figure out what a woman is just fine.

I read Baudrillard back in the day and didn't mind that because he was an amusing writer who made you think, even if he was sometimes a bit mad.

Butler is another matter. She's very heavily referenced but, I think, not often read, because the empress has no clothes.

Her philosophy is the equivalent of pointing at a dog and saying we don't know there's a dog there, it's just a performance of dogness based on canine stereotypes which themselves may or may not exist. There's a lot of dense jargon, but basically it's the kind of superficial cleverness that appeals to a certain kind of humanities undergrad.

Thelnebriati · 17/08/2025 21:44

When you've got security services, the House of Commons, police and the MOJ on your side; you are not the most vulnerable population.

RedToothBrush · 17/08/2025 21:49

Waitwhat23 · 17/08/2025 21:41

Men are not a 'less powerful' group than women.

Very incel-y vibe going on there, pal. Are we going to get a chorus of 'women live life on easy mode' next?

There'd be a reason why a men's rights activist sounds incel-y.

Catiette · 17/08/2025 21:51

Britinme · 17/08/2025 21:41

Oh he’s flounced? I am disappointed. I’d (seriously) hoped he’d engage with @Catiette’s thoughtful and well written post dissecting his OP, but it’s as if he just won’t engage with it. Ironically the thing that made me GC in the first place was trying to figure out why I must be wrong about TWAW and why we it had to be #nodebate instead of thoughtful analysis.

Yes, it was in large part reading posts like Manfreglory's that made me GC.

The occasionally really thought-provoking post, like the opening one, let me test my arguments in real-time, and invite counter-arguments. And the counter-arguments never seem to come.

And then when, instead of counter-arguments, you get astonishing generalisation and emotive insults, it does tend to suggest that your opinions, including your sense that this movement (NOT all the people it claims to defend) is misguided and oppressive overall are probably fairly well-founded.

myplace · 17/08/2025 21:53

Waitwhat23 · 17/08/2025 21:41

Men are not a 'less powerful' group than women.

Very incel-y vibe going on there, pal. Are we going to get a chorus of 'women live life on easy mode' next?

What’s that group that’s been talked about? Supertrans? TransXL? The incels that are trying out trans hoping they’ll be more successful as ‘women’?
TransMax? This one sounds familiar but surely not? Max sounds like Maxipads.

Igneococcus · 17/08/2025 21:53

SionnachRuadh · 17/08/2025 21:44

I read Baudrillard back in the day and didn't mind that because he was an amusing writer who made you think, even if he was sometimes a bit mad.

Butler is another matter. She's very heavily referenced but, I think, not often read, because the empress has no clothes.

Her philosophy is the equivalent of pointing at a dog and saying we don't know there's a dog there, it's just a performance of dogness based on canine stereotypes which themselves may or may not exist. There's a lot of dense jargon, but basically it's the kind of superficial cleverness that appeals to a certain kind of humanities undergrad.

I could never be a philosopher. I'd say "Judith, I'll just do a quick bit of sequencing and I tell you in a few hours for sure if this is a dog or not.*

Catiette · 17/08/2025 21:53

Catiette · 16/08/2025 22:12

I quite enjoyed this one - it's so far above the usual quality of argument we see here, and I think that deserves some acknowledgement. It made me think, at least.

both rest on 'you're not from here; your culture is different; you can't know what it is to have grown up 'over here'/had period pains/gone through labour.

The more precise analogy here would be a (let's say) second-generation immigrant not only asserting a British identity, but also saying their ancestry itself was British, and that that ancestry is what defines quintessential Britishness.

both reject difference or change in favour of sameness or stasis. 'You look and talk and think differently/you underwent a journey to get here/I can't fully relate to you'.

Most of your examples above as written represent less a rejection of difference than an honest acknowledgement of it (that's not to say they'd be appropriate to voice in most contexts). But the key question is, therefore, where such thoughts lead. To take the immigrant analogy: do these thoughts present a moral imperative to embrace and learn from multiculturalism, or a xenophobic "rejection" of it? This question is one of re/de-constructing a national identity. In contrast, women are being asked to 1) deny their own reality on an individual level (to accept that "woman" is internal and subjective, not physical and objective with the occasional outlier) and 2) surrender their legal protections and political voice (both of which exist only in contradistinction to men). Neither 1) not 2) is analogous to xenophobia. Lastly, whereas our country has always been a delicious melting pot of different invaders and visitors imperceptibly shaping whatever indeterminate mishmash British culture now is... women have always been female. Until now.

both rest not just on culture but on biology: 'Your genes are different than mine/your genotype for phenotype A, B or C aren't identical to mine'.

I'd actually challenge this and say that "racism" is a better description of this than "xenophobia". Racism - by definition - is universally condemned as empty prejudice, because of the absence of meaningful difference - indeed, race itself is, arguably, constructed to a significant degree. In contrast, in our case, there is difference. We'd prefer not to highlight it and obsess about genes, of course, but posts like yours regrettably force us to.

both are territorial: 'i sweated blood as a member of this sex/to make it in this society - who are you to come here and demand a seat at the table'?

And this is where that genetic difference becomes pertinent. Because women's genetic difference has led to exactly the kind of prejudiced assumptions that racism upholds: "They're inferior, they're best suited to physical 'labour' (wherever on the plantation or through reproduction), they shouldn't vote or own property" etc. Feminists spent the last century arguing that our genes make us different but equal. In the early 1900s, their challenge was to persuade society of their equality. We got there in some respects (the vote - only held for a precious, pathetic 100 years - and an unqualified right to mortgages etc. - enjoyed for about 50!) But the fight for "equality" is far from won (just read "Invisible Women"). What better counter-attack on women's equality than to deny their difference in the first place, so they can no longer distinguish themselves to fight for it? Incredibly, it seems that we're back to the "different but equal" battle of last century - but fighting it on both fronts now, reduced to defending our own "difference" even as we seek equality despite it. A patriarchal masterstroke, some may say.

both are suspicious of the reasons for transformation. 'You just want the perks of being female; you just want to look up our skirts in the toilet; you just migrated here from Guatemala for financial stability.'

Here, you rely on over-generalisation. There's a big difference between your reductive examples of damning prejudice above, and what feminists are typically (note: there's always outliers) saying, which is more akin to, "I worry that some Guatemalans may be coming over who aren't remotely in financial need," and which also often includes, "I'm really concerned about the impact that may be having on those Guatemalans who really do need our support," (AKA trans-identifying teens, the deeply dysphoric transsexual etc.)

both demonize, aggressively overstating the chance that the person has or will commit a crime. (Migrants: no need to give examples, just read the news. Trans people: 'you just want access to 'our spaces'' (i.e. the spaces where women/cis women enjoy their privacy from all men, cis or trans) so you can assault us'.

Again we see here the conveniently reductive phrasing that I'm sure matches some xenophobes, but doesn't actually reflect what the majority of GC feminists are saying. But more importantly, the stats don't lie: males 1) commit 98% of sexual crime, using 2) their up to 150% greater physical power. I bloody hope you're not saying the same about Guatemalan immigrants. 1) would be downright racist, and 2) the plot of a very curious superhero movie indeed.

both minimize or even deny, the need for the transition: 'No child is born trans/those parents were homophobic as the kid was just gay/trans women are men with their dicks lopped off/people should stay in their home country and migration is too dangerous'.

This one's so arbitrary as an analogy that I think my favourite response is PP's kid asking about why there's no tackling in tennis: there's rather too much to unpick. Certainly it's another false equivalency. But to take just one element... I think there's an interesting "tell" here in your "migration is too dangerous" - AKA, the feminist argument that remaining in your original gender may be more beneficial than transitioning. The key point here is that, whereas the xenophobic dismissal of migration rarely comes with concerted efforts by the xenophobe to improve the lot of Guatemalans, many feminists are fighting tooth and claw to ensure vulnerable children have the necessary provision to prevent them feeling compelled to undergo brutal and often life-limiting surgeries, and to have access to a better life through other means.

both hysterically fear that the trans person/migrant will corrupt innocents: 'they will indoctrinate children in school/they will spread religious fundamentalism'.

Has there been a 4000% percentage increase (ref. the Tavistock data) in American (I assume you're in the US) children taking dangerous journeys, with a significant proportion suffering lasting physical harm as a result? Are adults promulgating the belief through school, charitable campaigns and televised interviews that, if they don't do this, they may well commit suicide?

I mean, that would be horrifying, right?

Right?!

Edited for typos.

Edited

I hope people don't mind me re-posting one last time. Just in case.

Helleofabore · 17/08/2025 21:54

”in every country other than this one, equating sex with gender and insulting trans women by trying to keep them out of female space (ie. treating them like men) is 100% the purview of the Right.”

And yet, there are a growing number of countries where the majority of voters are indeed trying to keep male people out of female single sex spaces according to the polls taken in those countries. You seem ill informed or simply just choosing to ignore the growth across the political board of female people who wish to “insult trans women by trying to keep them out of female space”.

It is heartening to see safeguarding loop holes closing and all male people above the age of about 8 years old excluded from female single sex spaces.

No special treatment for any sub group of male people = robust safeguarding.

Male people fear being ‘insulted’, female people fear male people who cannot respect boundaries based on female people’s needs for the presence of no male people.

Heggettypeg · 17/08/2025 21:55

myplace · 17/08/2025 21:53

What’s that group that’s been talked about? Supertrans? TransXL? The incels that are trying out trans hoping they’ll be more successful as ‘women’?
TransMax? This one sounds familiar but surely not? Max sounds like Maxipads.

Transmaxxing, I think.

SionnachRuadh · 17/08/2025 21:55

Igneococcus · 17/08/2025 21:53

I could never be a philosopher. I'd say "Judith, I'll just do a quick bit of sequencing and I tell you in a few hours for sure if this is a dog or not.*

Or, as one of the great philosophers put it

"If a frog had wings he wouldn't bump his ass a-hoppin"
(Nathan Arizona)

Igneococcus · 17/08/2025 21:57

SionnachRuadh · 17/08/2025 21:55

Or, as one of the great philosophers put it

"If a frog had wings he wouldn't bump his ass a-hoppin"
(Nathan Arizona)

Haha, so true :)

Helleofabore · 17/08/2025 21:57

myplace · 17/08/2025 21:53

What’s that group that’s been talked about? Supertrans? TransXL? The incels that are trying out trans hoping they’ll be more successful as ‘women’?
TransMax? This one sounds familiar but surely not? Max sounds like Maxipads.

Yes. The transmaxxers.

At least they are honest about their aims.

Thelnebriati · 17/08/2025 22:01

Trans parallels?

BeLemonNow · 17/08/2025 22:02

If we are talking about power and parallels, let's think about trans right activist's bullying and forcing out of their opponents starting with academic theorists.

It reminds me far more of authoritarian regimes than anything so called gender critical campaigners get up to.

MurkyWeather · 17/08/2025 22:05

Strong recommend for this Judith Butler video, if you can bear Ash Sarkar. It shows the superficial cleverness that appeals to a certain kind of humanities undergrad (TM Sionnach) in all its bollocksy glory. Once you have watched it you can rest content in the knowledge that there is absolutely no point in reading any of her work.

My fave bit: her handwavy attempt to explain why self-ID can't apply to race

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BeLemonNow · 17/08/2025 22:08

SionnachRuadh · 17/08/2025 21:32

I think poorly read is supposed to mean that we haven't read Judith Butler.

They never consider the possibility that we might have actually read Judith Butler and consider Butler's work to be obscurantist flapdoodle.

I've not read Judith Butler, appreciate on here how extremely well read people are on here though.

I have had a skim through the Wikipedia page. Is it actually remotely practically relevant to i.e. single sex changing rooms and toilets?

"Gender is performative" well okay but she doesn't think we have to pee standing up in the men's now?!

Catiette · 17/08/2025 22:11

Helleofabore · 17/08/2025 21:54

”in every country other than this one, equating sex with gender and insulting trans women by trying to keep them out of female space (ie. treating them like men) is 100% the purview of the Right.”

And yet, there are a growing number of countries where the majority of voters are indeed trying to keep male people out of female single sex spaces according to the polls taken in those countries. You seem ill informed or simply just choosing to ignore the growth across the political board of female people who wish to “insult trans women by trying to keep them out of female space”.

It is heartening to see safeguarding loop holes closing and all male people above the age of about 8 years old excluded from female single sex spaces.

No special treatment for any sub group of male people = robust safeguarding.

Male people fear being ‘insulted’, female people fear male people who cannot respect boundaries based on female people’s needs for the presence of no male people.

Your last paragraph - it's that old adage again, isn't it:

“Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them.”

I think men just don't realise the difference that the strength differential makes - including post-transition - to how women move through the world. I sometimes think a good analogy (which works better in the UK than the US, for obvious reasons) would be:

Men, how would you feel if your spaces were formally opened to men with guns. Imagine that, in a country in which no one carries guns, and certainly never into toilets, there's suddenly a significant minority of gun-toting men who demand entry to your loos. And of that significant minority, some regularly threaten men just like you - and a few have injured or killed men like you. And you don't know which.

So you're there, in the loo, in the UK. No one else is around - or maybe there are even two or three of you. You're not armed - how could you be?! And a man walks in with a gun at his waist.

And you know - you all KNOW - that if that man chooses to attack you, there's NOTHING you can do to stop him. From the second he enters that room, your agency is theoretically nullified. You're subject to his will and his whims - subject, entirely, to Him. You just have to trust he WON'T use it.

You are now in a position in which, quite simply, you have to rely on Him. To trust Him.

Men, that's how many women experience male bodies (including post-transition) in their spaces. And it's an entirely apt metaphor: their weapons (their muscles, their fists, their 150% stronger punch) mean precisely to us what the gun does to you - they force an appalling recognition of absolute helplessness.

(Except a gun would probably be quicker than the horrors a woman may experience at a man's hands - an appropriately phallic metaphor...)

Don't tell me you'd be happier with this arrangement. You gain nothing from it but increased risk. And you'd be a bloody fool if you invite this situation because the men with guns are sad and it will mean they don't feel "insulted".

The women here, you may have noticed, aren't bloody fools.

Catiette · 17/08/2025 22:19

NB. Uncomfortably aware that the above is pointless and maybe even titillating. I just can't get past this naive hope that one day, some how, a differently-inclined reader may, just, listen. Just call me Dorothy, not wanting to look behind the curtain.

SionnachRuadh · 17/08/2025 22:23

BeLemonNow · 17/08/2025 22:08

I've not read Judith Butler, appreciate on here how extremely well read people are on here though.

I have had a skim through the Wikipedia page. Is it actually remotely practically relevant to i.e. single sex changing rooms and toilets?

"Gender is performative" well okay but she doesn't think we have to pee standing up in the men's now?!

Butler goes by they/them pronouns these days, but I doubt that even Butler's mystic powers have conjured up a dick that would allow her to pee standing up.

Catiette · 17/08/2025 22:24

Somewhere, over the (LGBTQ+++++) rainbow
Way up high
There's a land that I dream of
Where there's a thoughtful guy.

I'm sorry - very rough week, and towards the end of my second beer.

Heggettypeg · 17/08/2025 22:28

Rereading Catiette's review of OP's arguments, I just got a picture of a Frenchman jumping up and down on a beach in Normandy, shouting "But I'm in Britain! The English Channel is a nebulous dogwhistle..."
..