European Convention on Human Rights

[JellySaurus]

ARTICLE 8 the right to respect for private and family life, and Article 12 the right to marry, are used as to justify the requirement for the UK government to legally recognise people as the opposite sex. (Redundant, now that same-sex marriage is legal.)

8.1 Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence.

But why is 8.2, which is not mentioned in Article 12 but appears in similar form in many other Articles, not used as an argument for removing the GRA from our law?

8.2 There shall be no interference by a public authority with the exercise of this right except such as is in accordance with the law and is necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security, public safety or the economic well-being of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.

Enabling men to access female single-sex spaces has resulted in crimes: women and girls being assaulted and raped. Medical transition causes long-term ill-health. Telling children that they may not be the sex they are, or that they have to pretend that somebody is not the sex they are, is immoral as it subverts safeguarding. Multiple court cases have demonstrated that transgenderism illegally restricts the rights and freedoms of others.

Isn’t it time to recognise this?

I am talking about pathologising what is normal.

And I am not saying that a person who doesn't love everything about themselves is immoral. I am saying that people who pathologise normal development and support harm and lies instead of normal development and individuality are immoral.

The case was taken to ECtHR by three convicted prisoners who were not allowed to vote. The court ruled in their favour but none of these prisoners or any other convicted criminal serving a sentence in prison has ever got to vote & never will.
I've been referring to this case from memory. I am old & have a long memory but if you haven't been in the UK long it's excusable that your understanding of UK constitution & legislation is hazy. I first mentioned the voting rights of prisoners. It's a subject on which you obviously had zero knowledge but now think you are so smart after some quick Googling.

I don't care about masculinity or femininity. I'm not a man, and can't use the mens. It's not a space women should be in.

I'm disappointed that no-one with a better knowledge of UK law than me - of whom there are plenty on here! - has commented on my suggestion that men deliberately using the women's toilets - especially trans-identifying men who are openly doing it as a form of protest against women having single-sex spaces and in defiance of the UKSC ruling - are offending under the Public Order act by engaging in behaviour 'likely to cause harassment, alarm or distress'.

In fact, not just likely to but in the case of TRAs, calculated to cause harassment, alarm or distress to women in what is supposed to be a single-sex space.

If I'm right, that makes the ban on men using women's facilities only as difficult to enforce as all the other things that the police don't have the time or inclination to go after people for. So unlikely to be enforced because of policing policies, but not technically unenforceable.

LoremIpsumCici There is body positivity and then there is you are immoral if you don’t love everything about your body extremism like yours that I think can border on the toxic.

Cosmetic surgery is not a great comparator to use - I doubt if anybody on here, or anybody with a grain of common sense, is not deeply worried about the increase in cosmetic surgery procedures being carried out for non-medical reasons, driven by insecurities based on stereotypes of what people, especially women, should look like, and the profits to be made by encouraging those insecurities and offering dangerous solutions.

you are immoral if you don’t love everything about your body extremism'

C'mon LoremIpsumCici, do you know anyone who loves everything about their body? I certainly don't! You don't have to love it all, but the extremist position is obsessing over it to the point of having risky surgery to alter it instead of just learning to live with it; nobody's perfect.

edited to remove rogue asterisks

Yes.

You are male so do not belong in female single sex spaces. Sorry that you seem to have been misled by activists.

In reality, gay people did begin to gain rights, then there was some set backs as representation reached a certain point, then it advanced again after.

Trans rights did begin the early 2000s, then the current moral panic began and some rights are being rolled back, when the moral panic ends trans rights will advance again.

You'll notice in polling when someone is asked how much they support trans rights they are always significantly more in favour if they actually personally know trans people. It's easy to make up whatever lie you want in your head or with what the media feeds you, but not so much when you meet a trans person and you realise "hang on a minute this is a completely normal person that's nothing like what the media say!"

All my identity documents say female, my secondary sex characteristics are female and soon my primary ones will be too.

I am a woman, and will use women's spaces.

I'm very aware that I cannot literally become a biological woman. We all know that, what I can become is a transsexual woman. That is as close as I will ever be, and that sucks, but this is still so, so, SO much better than pretending to be happy as a man.

Transition doesn't cure dysphoria, because there is no cure. It is about harm prevention and it does a pretty brilliant job at that tbh

I'm disappointed that no-one with a better knowledge of UK law than me - of whom there are plenty on here! - has commented on my suggestion that men deliberately using the women's toilets - especially trans-identifying men who are openly doing it as a form of protest against women having single-sex spaces and in defiance of the UKSC ruling - are offending under the Public Order act by engaging in behaviour 'likely to cause harassment, alarm or distress'.

Possibly proving mens rea ?

How woukd a law making it illegal for people of the wrong sex using a single sex provision be any more difficult to police than DUI or driving without insurance?

There are no breathalysers before being able to drive nor requirement to show your driving licence or insurance policy. It is only if a transgressor is observed doing something suspicious, in an accident, or stopped for a routine check that their crime will be discovered. Following the traffic stop, failing a blood test or failure to produce the right documents reveals whether the crime was committed. The exact same could be applied to wrong sex use of single sex facilities. Producing a birth certificate written within 28 days of birth or a cheek swab test would make it easy to determine if a crime had been committed.

Dysphoria is not just a little bit of discomfort, it is an excruciating mental health condition with no cure. The only treatment is harm reduction, which is medical transition.

This is also why medical transition has an exceptionally low regret rate compared to cosmetic surgery, and even actual surgery!

An anorexic person starving themself will kill them. A trans person taking HRT and having surgery will not kill them. Hope this clarifies the difference.

I'm very aware that I cannot literally become a biological woman.

Well that's something, AYoungTransWoman.
But you still have a problem with awkward facts:
there is only one kind of woman - a biological woman. If you are not a biological woman, you are a biological man.
Transsexual, transgender - still a man, not a woman.

After all your hormones and surgeries, you'll still be a man. You'll probably still be recognisable as such, because the difference between men's and women's bodies are many, and can't all be altered by hormones and surgery. A lot of transwomen who think they 'pass' don't. They've gone to all that trouble and pain and expense and danger and they'll still be recognised as a man who tries to look like a woman.

I'm not saying people will hate them for it, so please don't bring up hatred again, in fact people may feel a twinge of sympathy for somebody trying so desperately and unsuccessfully to be something they can never be. It's worth repeating that transwomen who believe they have transitioned are often easily identifiable as still being male. All that effort to become a transsexual woman, but still a man, and identifiable as such. It's an unenviable position, and it's a shame that it's being held out to young people as a solution, when it is in fact route to a different set of problems.

Since you are aware that you 'cannot literally become a biological woman', you must be aware that you are not entitled to use single sex facilities that are designated for women - biological women, as the Supreme Court has reminded us - so please don't do it, women's toilets are for biological women, which you know you are not.

A significant part of my job involves supporting organisations to make reasonable adjustments and create enabling environments for those who struggle due to differences (often related to protected characteristics). I can say, with absolute certainty, that in most cases, the more exposure people have to the TQ+, the less keen they are to employ and include them.

You might have seen some polling that involves people ticking a likert scale, in the real world, students are reporting being increasingly fed up with the lectures and seminars being disrupted by the demands of TQ+ students and employers are becoming more wary of employing people with TQ identities due to the disruption this has caused.

TRAs often accuse people of holding an image of a transwoman as being a predator, but many TRAs hold an image of a transwoman as a vulnerable soul in need of allies. In reality the term ‘trans’ covers a lot of ground. I would say that for every 10 transwomen I have worked with, over half had personality disorders or fetishes that resulted in them being difficult to work with and to integrate.

Whilst my exposure to people from all protected characteristics is skewed (I become involved because issues are arising), maybe you too have had selective exposure to those who identify as TQ? The prevalence of disruptive and maladaptive behaviours amounts my TQ clients/patients is far greater than for any other group.

The issue as I see it is the term trans doesn’t tell us anything meaningful.

The very fact you are willing to run rampant over women’s rights to single sex facilities despite everything you have heard from this forum, despite acknowledging yourself that you cannot change sex, just proves you are not a woman. You have zero real understanding of womanhood and what that involves. It screams male entitlement. You are not welcome.

Sorry, but women standing up for themselves and fighting against discrimination is not "male entitlement". It only further proves to me that GC ideology reeks of misogyny.

I see the exact opposite soooooo maybe anecdotal evidence ISNT the most useful thing lol

I had to google 'mens rea' and because I accidentally put S at the end of 'rea', the first thing that came up was... men's restrooms😁In fairness to Google, it was actually Bing that I used, Google is more discerning..

I think the issue of intent to cause harassment, alarm or distress has been amply signalled by the likes of AYoungTransWoman who acknowledges they are not a biological female, but fully intend to continue to use women's toilets, despite being fully aware of the alarm and distress that a non-biologically-female person in a biological-women-only space can cause.

There are also plenty of TRA statements about deliberately 'invading' women's toilets in what is clearly a provocative, politically-motivated act in defiance of the clear ruling of the UKSC.

I can't imagine it would be difficult to establish mens rea in view of all these public threats to invade women-only spaces, they've actually written the receipts themselves, and we're keeping all the receipts

I am not a biological woman, and I am not a biological man. I am a transsexual woman, which is not the same as a biological woman, but is still a Woman. That is how I am accepted in society. I know that, from my every day life.

I intent to use women's toilets, because I'm a woman and sometimes I need the loo

You're a man. Use the men's or unisex toilets

There it is again. You said yourself you are male. You’re not a woman. It’s not misogyny. You’re standing up for male rights.

It’s apparent that there is no getting you to understand the offence you are causing. I normally wouldn’t engage but you seemed articulate. I’m bowing out of dealing with this now but wish you peace as you come to terms with the fact the world can’t be as you wish.

I'm a woman, so I'll use the women's actually.