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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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11
TheSandgroper · 06/08/2025 03:55

And we are done.

OP posts:
Cattywillow · 06/08/2025 03:59

TheSandgroper · 06/08/2025 03:49

Did I hear right?

A facially neutral condition? WTAF is that?

It’s a legal term, not to do with gender. I think it means that even if on the face of it a provision does not discriminate (is facially neutral) it can have discriminatory effect.

FeralWoman · 06/08/2025 04:00

Stiff drink for everyone now that we’re done.

Why didn’t they let it run for the full 4 days scheduled?

I think we can all guess which way the middle judge, Perry, will rule. The male judge is maybe on Sall’s side, and no idea about the left hand side judge. Barely said anything throughout it all.

It will probably easily be two to three months until there’s a decision.

TheSandgroper · 06/08/2025 04:02

Cattywillow · 06/08/2025 03:59

It’s a legal term, not to do with gender. I think it means that even if on the face of it a provision does not discriminate (is facially neutral) it can have discriminatory effect.

Thank you. I thought it was up there with “biological birth” in expressions that I didn’t knew were a thing.

OP posts:
FeralWoman · 06/08/2025 04:10

Three to six months for a decision.

Helleofabore · 06/08/2025 04:35

If I understand it correctly, SG’s barrister is setting up for a high court appearance. Therefore he is covering off as much legal references as he can in preparation.

Sal has been upfront that this will end up in the high court.

TheKhakiQuail · 06/08/2025 05:12

AHRC argued both that its gender identity discrimination to exclude a transwoman from female app, and that its gender identity discrimination to exclude a breast feeding trans man from provision of breastfeeding facilities at work. Are we supposed to treat someone as actually being of their gender identity or not?
There's also big discrepancies in whether GI is 'trans vs non trans' (Tickles lawyer) or GI is female/male/other (AHRC). The legislation doesn't give any clues, so everyone just defines as they wish!

TheKhakiQuail · 06/08/2025 05:39

LAGs lawyer was very good. I wish he had more time. 30 mins is not enough, but he made a good case in the time. The lead judge started by telling him he had half an hour, so until 10.24, but not to feel he had to fill the whole time. I'd love to see him with 5 hours to really expand his arguments as he clearly could run through the whole "FWS case - the Australian Version".

TheKhakiQuail · 06/08/2025 05:49

GwenniMcKinney · 06/08/2025 03:36

Did he represent Sall in the first hearing ?

No, Bridie Nolan did. I got the impression she rubbed the judge up the wrong way - there was a lot of righteous indignation about men and women, and not a lot of law and logic, as far as I could tell. This guy is the polar opposite - well, a lot of law, not sure about logic. I kind of wish they'd get LAGs lawyers on the job as they are brilliant.

Cattywillow · 06/08/2025 05:53

FeralWoman · 06/08/2025 04:00

Stiff drink for everyone now that we’re done.

Why didn’t they let it run for the full 4 days scheduled?

I think we can all guess which way the middle judge, Perry, will rule. The male judge is maybe on Sall’s side, and no idea about the left hand side judge. Barely said anything throughout it all.

It will probably easily be two to three months until there’s a decision.

Female judge on left has short hair so is actually male.

FeralWoman · 06/08/2025 06:00

Cattywillow · 06/08/2025 05:53

Female judge on left has short hair so is actually male.

😆

FeralWoman · 06/08/2025 06:02

Here’s the written submission from the LAG. On Twitter some had age verification issues when trying to access it because of the new UK internet rules.

https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/236fa96f-5745-4764-ae59-77d6c65f1078/downloads/e8894f90-b67e-40ca-b059-f5d6a113d1ca/%5BLAG%5D%2007.07.2025%20-%20Lesbian%20Action%20Group%20Submis.pdf?ver=1754385517451

Cattywillow · 06/08/2025 06:03

I liked the point Hutley made about using the respondents defintion of GI could lead to a man excluded from a female space arguing his exclusion was actually based on his GI as a cisgender male. So essentially making any special measures unworkable.

TheKhakiQuail · 06/08/2025 06:15

Cattywillow · 06/08/2025 06:03

I liked the point Hutley made about using the respondents defintion of GI could lead to a man excluded from a female space arguing his exclusion was actually based on his GI as a cisgender male. So essentially making any special measures unworkable.

I think he was getting to a better point - that a gay male can also complain he's excluded from a female space - it's perfectly normal for some people with protected characteristics to be left out of other pcs special measures, but Perry cut him off. They will easily dismiss that cis men don't need access to special measures for the purpose of increasing equality.

FeralWoman · 06/08/2025 06:29

I’d love to get my hands on copies of the Sex Discrimination Commissioner’s and Equality Australia’s submissions. Does anyone have a link to either of them?

TheKhakiQuail · 06/08/2025 08:37

FeralWoman · 06/08/2025 06:29

I’d love to get my hands on copies of the Sex Discrimination Commissioner’s and Equality Australia’s submissions. Does anyone have a link to either of them?

Not from this round - all the submissions for the original hearing are on federal court website, but have only seen LAGs this time. It would be great to see them.

FeralWoman · 06/08/2025 11:47

Twitter Space about the hearing today. Same host as last night.
https://x.com/English_RoseG/status/1953033094723994048

https://x.com/English_RoseG/status/1953033094723994048

MarieDeGournay · 06/08/2025 11:47

FeralWoman · 06/08/2025 02:41

There’s different types of Irish accent?

Is the Pope from Chicago??😁
Accents here vary every few miles!

TheKhakiQuail · 08/08/2025 03:54

FeralWoman · 06/08/2025 06:29

I’d love to get my hands on copies of the Sex Discrimination Commissioner’s and Equality Australia’s submissions. Does anyone have a link to either of them?

All the submissions now available https://www.fedcourt.gov.au/services/access-to-files-and-transcripts/online-files/giggle-for-girls-v-roxanne-tickle

Very interesting. Tickles side arguing that RTs sex is female, and gender identity is female but also trans woman, and that GI consists of both identity and appearance, characteristics and mannerisms, and that a (non-passing) TW may retain appearance, characteristics and mannerisms perceived as male despite them being a woman. Thus they say the comparator would be the treatment of a transwoman with characteristics perceived as not [sufficiently] female vs the treatment of a ciswoman with characteristics perceived as female.

RTs lawyer seems to consider GI as 'trans vs cis'. AHRC considers GI as 'female' but with subgroups of trans and not. I'm not sure if there is anything in this, but conceptually it creates different groups if you actually follow through the logic. If the main categorising of GI is 'trans vs not' it is equivalent to gay, bi, straight, pregnant or not etc like all our other categories. Is it still GI discrimination if TM are included but not TW? Conversely, if the main groupings under GI are m/f (and 'other'?) than at least at the top level, SG and RT share the SAME GI (female), and it is only at the sub-group level they would be distinguishable. I think this is why SGs lawyer made the point that the law accepts special measures to protect for instance one Aboriginal community even if it doesn't help all Aboriginal communities.

This hasn't fully been explored. If you have a clear hierarchy e.g. gay people more likely to be disadvantaged than straight its more clear cut, but if you have sexual orientation = same sex attracted, can subcategories exclude each other (G exclude L)? Given that GI is a separate category to sex, and doesn't have all the exemptions like sex does, if there are potentially a whole list of GIs (trans woman, cis woman, trans man, cis man, non-binary person, maybe genderqueer person, etc - what are the inequalities between all of these categories that the law may seek to rectify?). The only exemption relates to sports. So would a measure for trans people include or exclude non-binary people, and is it discrimination if it does? If 'cis woman' is a free floating gender identity (distinct from sex), is it acceptable to put a measure in place - are they inherently considered purely an 'advantaged group' or do all the historic oppressions and inequalities faced by 'cis women' (voting, pay issues, glass ceiling, sexual abuses etc) mean a measure for them is reasonable?

Given that the argument seems to be that sex is whatever your GI is, it seems a little redundant to include "trans woman" "trans man" etc as separate categories. Our law doesn't go through and list gay men, lesbian women, straight men, straight women etc for any other characteristic. If the groups under GI were "trans, cis, non-binary (& others?)", an app like giggle would exclude ~50% of each category, so I'm not sure they could show discrimination.

SGs lawyers arguments are clearer on paper, although I still don't 100% understand some of the points he was making in court it kind of makes sense. Also the AHRC were pushing the distinction between passing and non-passing, with being a non-passing transwomen (not their words) the focus of the discrimination. So that may be why SGs lawyer focussed on that too.

Giggle for Girls v Roxanne Tickle

https://www.fedcourt.gov.au/services/access-to-files-and-transcripts/online-files/giggle-for-girls-v-roxanne-tickle

FeralWoman · 08/08/2025 04:43

@TheKhakiQuail Thank you for the link. Sounds like some fascinating but brain hurting reading in there. Should feed the submissions on Tickle’s side into ChatGPT or Grok or something and see what it can summarise it as. I’m guessing that even AI would go WTF.

Sall did a phone in interview with The Platform in New Zealand. Short version is on YouTube, longer version on their website. Link is on Sall’s Twitter. She said that they’re hoping for a verdict by December.

TheKhakiQuail · 08/08/2025 07:26

TheKhakiQuail · 06/08/2025 06:15

I think he was getting to a better point - that a gay male can also complain he's excluded from a female space - it's perfectly normal for some people with protected characteristics to be left out of other pcs special measures, but Perry cut him off. They will easily dismiss that cis men don't need access to special measures for the purpose of increasing equality.

Actually, maybe the cis man example is fine - we have no idea what the hierarchy of inequalities associated with assorted gender identities, given it is not linked to the protected characteristic of sex with all its historic rights issues between men and women. Who does a trans man need to be made equal with? A cis woman? A cis man? Do all other gender categories need to be equalised with cis men? Or is cis man just another gender id with none of the baggage of the sexed 'man' category?

nomorenomoreme · 08/08/2025 09:38

I can’t even bear to follow this. What Sal Grover has been through with this absolute insanity. Shame, shame on the Australian government.

Absentmindedsmile · 08/08/2025 12:37

nomorenomoreme · 08/08/2025 09:38

I can’t even bear to follow this. What Sal Grover has been through with this absolute insanity. Shame, shame on the Australian government.

Agreed 💯. It’s a scandal. And I hope in future, it is treated as such.