Page 23 | M&S apologises over trans employee in bra department (Telegraph)

WimbledonWhites · 2025-08-04T21:16:08+00:00

How many “cis” male members of staff do you suppose would approach teenage girls in the lingerie department? [[https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/08/04/ms-apologises-over-trans-employee-in-bra-department https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/08/04/ms-apologises-over-trans-employee-in-bra-department/]] [[https://archive.ph/nTDB9 https://archive.ph/nTDB9archive.ph/nTDB9]]

RedToothBrush · 06/08/2025 08:41

ThatCyanCat · 06/08/2025 08:39

They think they're really clever, and they think women responding to a clear red flag from a man is a baseless "assumption". They have no understanding of what it actually is to be female, no interest in finding out beyond the self image of a cross dresser, and a litany of excuses as to why it doesn't really matter when the stuff we knew would happen happens because it's the cost of freedom, by which they mean men doing whatever they want and women being corrected out of their thoughts about it.

Their free thinking challenging of assumptions, ignores the account of women who were there, the tacit admission and confirmation of the organisation, and indeed anything like pay gaps, workplace sexism (in its other forms) and racism and the like. They care only about driving home whatever narrative makes it ok for a man to do whatever he likes, including trying to inveigle himself into an encounter with a teenager looking for underwear, and dismissing all the women who've lived with this shit since they were teenagers themselves, as merely not as enlightened as they are.

The only question now is why.

Women always get it wrong. They can't understand the world properly.

I'm calling 9.

Men always know the “real reasons” for everything women do and say.

Helleofabore · 06/08/2025 08:44

“This is a public area of the shop, they are an employee asking whether a customer needs help.”

It is irrelevant that it is a ‘public area of the shop’. It is was still inappropriate behaviour. Inappropriate behaviour can occur in public with the world watching and has done forever. It is ludicrous to defend this with ‘this is a public area’.

That inappropriate behaviour is a male member of staff approaching a teenaged girl in a bra department.

You can keep repeating this point but it really just shows a lack of understanding about the boundaries needed to protect children and female people.

Why? Why do you seek to excuse inappropriate male behaviour?

WandaWomblesaurusWonka · 06/08/2025 08:45

You can’t keep calling it an “echo chamber” just because it’s the one place online that hasn’t been shut down where women aren’t self censoring or being “nice” or polite enough for a curated panel talk approved by a couple of stoney faced mind auditors. Women are allowed to talk, they are allowed to express their fear and their disbelief and their discomfort.
This also isn’t a Reddit forum where men in porn filled cosplay are allowed to redefine reality for young girls.

A man in Marks and Spencer’s approached a teenage girl in the lingerie department.

I’m saying no. Even if he’s got lovely lipstick on, no. Even with a per Una floral viscose cardigan with some weird asymmetrical fringing on it.

No Colin the Caterpillar in the lingerie department!

ThatCyanCat · 06/08/2025 08:46

TheKeatingFive · 06/08/2025 08:41

Grown men should not be talking to lone children. That is a very long-established unwritten rule.

Especially not about their needs while shopping for bras.

The fact that people apparently need this pointed out to them shows us exactly how much our poor children are being groomed to facilitate predatory men. Pure evil.

No, no, no. Children aren't being primed for dubious approaches from men about their underwear. We are having our terrible assumptions challenged by enlightened Jesus figures who can correct our instincts, everything we've learned since predators first approached us in our school uniform, and make us better people if only we could be moral and clever enough to see how right they are and why a man in a dress approaching a child among the bras is absolutely fine. Don't listen to the mother who was there and has the correspondence. That's just an assumption.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/08/2025 08:50

Helleofabore · 06/08/2025 08:33

The male member of staff crossed into the bra dept and approached the teenager while the mother was standing apart from her and hidden from view. This is directly from the mother. Ie. That member of staff did not know the teenager was shopping with her mother when he approached the teenager.

She confirmed that M&S informed her by letter that the male member of staff was allocated to be upstairs and not anywhere near the bra dept.

And again, what part of asking if someone wants help in the bra dept would not have the expectation that that ‘help’ would entail discussions about size, style and usage. None of those are appropriate for a male staff member to be asking a teenaged girl. Even when with their mother there.

And your constant denial of ‘but they don’t know whether the person was trans or not’ misses the entire point. The point is that it was a male member of staff as identified by the mother and the daughter. If you, personally, lack the ability to identify the correct sex of a person through observation and interaction, please stop believing that this is the norm. It is highly likely that a female person will correctly identify the sex of a male person with observation and interaction.

You seem over confident in your very own interpretation of the facts and determined to excuse the harm caused to this girl. Why?

What Helle said.

Superhansrantowindsor · 06/08/2025 08:50

Another one of these threads where someone comes along and tells women they are wrong,
Women - know your place.

PeonyPatch · 06/08/2025 08:51

This is another prime example of how trans-men are infringing on women’s rights to same-sex spaces.

GCAcademic · 06/08/2025 08:53

I’m saying no. Even if he’s got lovely lipstick on, no. Even with a per Una floral viscose cardigan with some weird asymmetrical fringing on it.

🤣

ThatCyanCat · 06/08/2025 08:55

I'd like to add... when a man approaches you in a way that makes you uneasy, you can make all the assumptions you like. You're not hiring for a job, you're not performing a public service. You can assume whatever the fuck you like about him and refuse him and get away from him, and dudebros who want to pontificate about your wrongthink will just have to get over it. Especially when they actually think that shit like this never happens in public. My God.

RedToothBrush · 06/08/2025 08:56

I am fascinated by the dynamic where women say X happened and he was creepy as fuck.

And the sheer lengths that posters will go to tell them they are wrong.

Even more so when it's a scenario where a child is involved.

"That situation, couldn't possibly have happened".

Errr....

Its funny how atuned women with children are to this bullshit.

WandaWomblesaurusWonka · 06/08/2025 08:57

This is not Harry Potter and the Echo Chamber of Sissy Porn Denial. This is real life, a real girl. This relentless pressure from posters who are willfully being blind to this and expecting us to pretend we’re in some kind of glittery Drag Race liberation fairytale where everyone’s identity is sacred except boring “cis” women’s is finally collapsing under the weight of its own exclusionary colonising practices.

Also no one in the real world is buying the Bumbaisms of “I can’t tell the difference between men and women I don’t know my own sex I would guess I’m a woman but HOW DO I KNOW REALLY?” as clever.
Because it’s stupid.

NeverOneBiscuit · 06/08/2025 08:57

I bet Lun82 would have no problem ‘understanding’ if the man who claims to be a woman felt upset in this scenario. They’d be straight in there to call out misgendering (aka correctly sexing) or any other perceived slight to the oh so vulnerable, just trying to exist man.

Yet curiously, things that never had to be explained until just a few years ago, eg why a man shouldn’t be a participant in a female rape counselling group, undressing in a female changing room, approaching a lone female child who’s looking at bras in M&S, now have to be justified through the lens of the feelings of the men who want in.

A creepy man 10 years ago is the same creepy man today, however he presents in terms of costume & the claims he makes about himself. Luckily for him he has people like Lun82 to reframe & excuse his motivations & behaviour.

ArabellaScott · 06/08/2025 08:57

RedToothBrush · 06/08/2025 08:56

I am fascinated by the dynamic where women say X happened and he was creepy as fuck.

And the sheer lengths that posters will go to tell them they are wrong.

Even more so when it's a scenario where a child is involved.

"That situation, couldn't possibly have happened".

Errr....

Its funny how atuned women with children are to this bullshit.

Aye, because it's so rare for men to be creeps. Women know this.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/08/2025 09:00

ThatCyanCat · 06/08/2025 08:55

I'd like to add... when a man approaches you in a way that makes you uneasy, you can make all the assumptions you like. You're not hiring for a job, you're not performing a public service. You can assume whatever the fuck you like about him and refuse him and get away from him, and dudebros who want to pontificate about your wrongthink will just have to get over it. Especially when they actually think that shit like this never happens in public. My God.

Quite.

imaginaryisi · 06/08/2025 09:00

Tessisme · 06/08/2025 06:30

Oh dear, perfect storm for M&S. Pink News (which I don’t follow) came up on my Facebook feed reporting this. I had a look at the comments and there were quite a few asserting that they will boycott M&S for apologising to the mum (even though it was a shit non apology.) They were also pissed off that the mum assumed the person was trans. Christ, what planet are they on? Women KNOW a trans woman when they see one. There were also outraged comments that this person was ‘only doing their job’. So, yeah, lots of hate for M&S. They deserve this anyway for their general lack of respect for women’s spaces which has extended across a number of years. And now the men they’re so determined to pander to - and their cheerleaders - are turning on them. This is not just any gender bilge furore, this is a Marks and … (you get the idea!)

I saw this too. People defending the right of an adult biological male to approach a teenage girl about her underwear, whilst the mum who objects is vilified. How is this not a "Are we the bad guys" moment?

RoyalCorgi · 06/08/2025 09:01

Helleofabore · 06/08/2025 08:44

“This is a public area of the shop, they are an employee asking whether a customer needs help.”

It is irrelevant that it is a ‘public area of the shop’. It is was still inappropriate behaviour. Inappropriate behaviour can occur in public with the world watching and has done forever. It is ludicrous to defend this with ‘this is a public area’.

That inappropriate behaviour is a male member of staff approaching a teenaged girl in a bra department.

You can keep repeating this point but it really just shows a lack of understanding about the boundaries needed to protect children and female people.

Why? Why do you seek to excuse inappropriate male behaviour?

Edited

You never know with these people, do you? Are they so exceptionally naive and gullible that they think this is just an innocent example of a staff member offering to help a young girl?

Or are they fully aware that there is only one possible interpretation here, namely that a creepy man is perving all over a young girl - and therefore they are engaged in deliberate gaslighting?

I don't suppose we'll ever find out.

ArabellaScott · 06/08/2025 09:01

ThatCyanCat · 06/08/2025 08:46

No, no, no. Children aren't being primed for dubious approaches from men about their underwear. We are having our terrible assumptions challenged by enlightened Jesus figures who can correct our instincts, everything we've learned since predators first approached us in our school uniform, and make us better people if only we could be moral and clever enough to see how right they are and why a man in a dress approaching a child among the bras is absolutely fine. Don't listen to the mother who was there and has the correspondence. That's just an assumption.

Show quote history

Absolutely. At all costs, ignore 'we believe her' and 'me too'. Remind yourself women and girls tend to make shit up to make men look bad, and most men should be given the benefit of the doubt, especially if they've gone to all the trouble of trying to be helpful in the underwear department.

ArabellaScott · 06/08/2025 09:03

imaginaryisi · 06/08/2025 09:00

I saw this too. People defending the right of an adult biological male to approach a teenage girl about her underwear, whilst the mum who objects is vilified. How is this not a "Are we the bad guys" moment?

Show quote history

Because the gender myth has recast the male as vulnerable and marginalised (he may be) and as therefore virtuous and incapable of doing bad stuff (logical fallacy).

RedToothBrush · 06/08/2025 09:04

ArabellaScott · 06/08/2025 09:01

Absolutely. At all costs, ignore 'we believe her' and 'me too'. Remind yourself women and girls tend to make shit up to make men look bad, and most men should be given the benefit of the doubt, especially if they've gone to all the trouble of trying to be helpful in the underwear department.

Show quote history

10. The worst thing about male violence creepiness is that it makes men look bad.

PeonyPatch · 06/08/2025 09:05

I don’t think we can prove that he was 100% perving. HOWEVER, it was absolutely inappropriate for a biological male to be in that area of the store. Women and girls have the right to privacy and same-sex areas, and I feel that lingerie ought to be manned (excuse the pun) by women.

This is an interesting area however, because men and trans-men will likely be shopping in these areas too - either for their loved ones, or for themselves. It’s a difficult one. It’s really showing how times have changed I guess. I do think stores have a responsibility to the safeguarding of women and girls though.

ArabellaScott · 06/08/2025 09:07

The gender myth also relies heavily on the assumption that mothers - older women - are generally 'Karens' who are altogether nasty old bags who hate men.

This isn't an accident. Note how often criticism includes sneering about women's age.

Helleofabore · 06/08/2025 09:13

ArabellaScott · 06/08/2025 09:03

Because the gender myth has recast the male as vulnerable and marginalised (he may be) and as therefore virtuous and incapable of doing bad stuff (logical fallacy).

Show quote history

Creating a pathway into the axis of oppression of female people as well as overlaying that axis with their own identity axis of oppression has indeed allowed some male people to be seen as the most marginalised and most vulnerable.

Yet, they are still part of the oppressor group that is male people even though they demand that they are no longer part of it.

It is all based on a careful construction that has zero foundations. Because these claims are not supported by any objectively true fact about people’s sex class. It is all vapour. Even if it is genuinely believed.

Who knew we would be seeing this recasting exercise 15-20 years ago! But here we are.

Oreosareawful · 06/08/2025 09:14

I came to find this thread as this story popped up on my facebook this morning. I went straight to the comments after reading and was appauled to see so much gas-lighting. How dare us lowly women feel that we should not be approached by men in an underwear department.
"The employee (HE) was just doing his job"
"Retail staff member offers help in shop and is complained about"
" I (male) was measured for trousers by a woman when I was 13, Maybe I should seek therapy"

Why are we still having to put up with this shit? Why is that mum being berated for protecting her teenage daughter from a pervert? I'm so bloody anygy about this.

NeverOneBiscuit · 06/08/2025 09:14

That’s so true about the ageism.

India Willoughby is a good example. He’s the same age as the women he vilifies, but he refers to himself as a girl about town, meeting friends for coffee, with his heavily photoshopped selfies of his face full of make up.

He really is the ultimate delusional man. It’s as if he believes the trans process (whatever that is) has made him into a young girl. Those nasty old hags on MN & X are just jealous of his youthful looks & demeanour 🙄

RedToothBrush · 06/08/2025 09:14

PeonyPatch · 06/08/2025 09:05

I don’t think we can prove that he was 100% perving. HOWEVER, it was absolutely inappropriate for a biological male to be in that area of the store. Women and girls have the right to privacy and same-sex areas, and I feel that lingerie ought to be manned (excuse the pun) by women.

This is an interesting area however, because men and trans-men will likely be shopping in these areas too - either for their loved ones, or for themselves. It’s a difficult one. It’s really showing how times have changed I guess. I do think stores have a responsibility to the safeguarding of women and girls though.

It's the point about safeguarding though.

You don't put yourself into a situation where you are vulnerable to malicious accusations. You can be completely innocent and fail safeguarding training if caught in this situation.

A scout leader who has good intentions and takes a child home can lose their permit as a leader for doing so. Even if the child or parent is grateful. If another leader knows about it they have a duty to report. Even if they know the intention of the other leader is honest and honourable.

Safeguarding training tells you this because it understands if you allow that situation, it's open to abuse by others who have less innocent intentions and not letting that situation ever arise is the best way to prevent that.

M&S should be taking this onboard.

It's not ok.