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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
EmpressaurusKitty · 03/08/2025 07:52

Here’s a share token. And yes, it’s a good article.

www.thetimes.com/article/6f3e203a-5dfb-470b-9872-833e2e52a75f?shareToken=62df3d3ec004798b008d361a2418d815

ScrollingLeaves · 03/08/2025 08:00

Thank you, it is brilliant.

Realityisreal · 03/08/2025 08:21

Excellent article, thank you.

Crouton19 · 03/08/2025 08:23

She is correct. This issue has arisen in the now fairly standard pattern of the middle classes trying to be class warriors with their luxury beliefs while not admitting that, actually, they don't really like the sort of people they purport to be trying to "save" and will describe them as oafs or bigots or gammons in private.

HaveYouActuallyDoneAnyWashingThisWeekMum · 03/08/2025 08:34

Thank you for the share token. Excellent article. All these medical professionals who have ganged up against Sandie and who claim not to know if someone is male or female - where’s their integrity? I’m embarrassed by their faux stupidity 🤯

Toseland · 03/08/2025 08:44

Hmm, you could have done without calling Sandie Peggie 'boring' Janice!

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/08/2025 08:46

Yes, very good article by JT.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 03/08/2025 08:48

Thanks, excellent article. I'm reminded of Hillary Clinton referring to Trump supporters as deplorables and losing the US election. Also Gordon Brown caught on mike describing a Labour supporter who tried to express concern about unrestricted immigration from the EU as a bigoted woman. As I've said before quite a number of times, people like me who live in a cosy left of centre middle-class bubble had a very brutal awakening after Brexit. We found out that the only reason we hadn't heard people expressing racist views openly for some years was not because very few people held those views any more, it was because a great many people understood they would get into hot water at work and in some social settings if they said what they thought, so they didn't. But as soon as they thought they could get away with it, out it all came again. They hadn't been persuaded out of their racist views by reasoned argument. They'd been suppressed, threatened and patronised, and unsurprisingly they resented it. Well, as we may all be reminded at the next election, all those people have a vote and sometimes they feel strongly enough to use it. Farage, who likes to pass himself off as a man of the people in spite of his public school education, City career, German (ex-)wife and so on, understands this and at the moment looks set to benefit from it at the next General Election, as Trump already has. Grim times.

HaveYouActuallyDoneAnyWashingThisWeekMum · 03/08/2025 08:51

Toseland · 03/08/2025 08:44

Hmm, you could have done without calling Sandie Peggie 'boring' Janice!

She’s being tongue in cheek.

DisappearingGirl · 03/08/2025 08:51

Toseland · 03/08/2025 08:44

Hmm, you could have done without calling Sandie Peggie 'boring' Janice!

I assume she meant it as in "boring old middle -aged woman, not worthy of respect" as that's how women of a certain age seem to be viewed by society sometimes.

OP posts:
Ariana12 · 03/08/2025 08:52

Thank you. I buy the Times on Saturdays as Janice Turner often has a column and she's always brilliant. She's also on X as victoriapeckham don't know why that name. She's been bitingly good all along. The spectacle of Fife doctors - and also nurses who were allegedly friends of Sandy Peggie - putting the boot in has been sickening. Im afraid I also blame Jane Russell KC.she would have been decisive in deciding how to run the case and what evidence to call. I really hope the tribunal grants aggravated damages for that.

WimbledonWhites · 03/08/2025 08:54

Brilliant article.

Outside the tribunal in Dundee, Jane Russell KC, stopped to pet a border collie. “Would that be a female dog or a male dog?” asked a mischievous Scot. Russell laughed nervously. “Ha-HAH! Well, I don’t know. How would you know?” she mumbled, then darted into the building.

Grin
Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 03/08/2025 08:57

HaveYouActuallyDoneAnyWashingThisWeekMum · 03/08/2025 08:51

She’s being tongue in cheek.

Fabulous username! Grin

DisappearingGirl · 03/08/2025 09:05

Thanks for the share token. Yes fantastic article.

I've often thought when people talk about "intersectionality" they rarely take account of class or socioeconomic status. The issue of males in women's spaces is going to disproportionately affect poorer and more working class women. They are more likely to end up in domestic violence shelters, in prisons, or doing hands-on jobs that require changing in front of others (e.g. nurse). They also have less of a voice - and certainly less of a voice that will be listened to by the middle classes.

And Gaspode yes agree entirely that it goes further than the gender issue. In terms of race and immigration, I live in a nice left-leaning part of my city which is majority white but with a range of ethnicities all nicely integrated. Same at my work. There are other areas of my city with poor immigrant populations causing a lot of social problems, but if someone living there was to raise this, they'd be accused of racism (for balance, there are also areas of my city where it's the poor white communities who have the most social problems).

Thinking about the Sandie Peggie case, I'm sure neither Sandie nor Beth Upton are perfect. But that shouldn't matter to the general principle of females needing a single-sex space to change.

OP posts:
HaveYouActuallyDoneAnyWashingThisWeekMum · 03/08/2025 09:10

I have friends in a leafy London suburb who tick all the right boxes regarding trendy “right-think” but who use the odious phrase “white flight” to refer to people like themselves moving away from areas that are seeing people of, shock, a different ethnicity, move into. The hypocrisy is staggering.

Thanks @Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g Have to admit that your name baffles me 😆 Champion the wonder horse??!

illinivich · 03/08/2025 09:17

There's probably a lot of truth in this article.

I think its more that individuals who consider themselves intelligent stoned the person who said the emperor has no clothes, rather than laugh at the emperor. They dont want to acknowledge that they were wrong in the first place, so doubled down. It was hierarchy of intelligence, rather than class, i think.

Much like Turner was not above getting involved in a bit of class snobbery when she coined 'ultras'. Only it seemed to be the media controlling the unknowns on twitter.

27TimesAway · 03/08/2025 09:20

Excellent article. As always JT cuts through the crap.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 03/08/2025 09:23

It comes from Terry Pratchett. I adopted it when he died.

ValerieDoonican · 03/08/2025 09:27

I'm assuming "Victoria Peckham" refers to a commute Grin

Highlandhardrain · 03/08/2025 09:36

Such a good article- thanks for posting. Sets it all out so clearly.

guinnessguzzler · 03/08/2025 09:42

Thanks for the share, brilliant piece.

WorriedMutha · 03/08/2025 09:56

Sonia Sodha appears in a recent Two Matts podcast and covers the class issues extremely well. JKR has written about it too.
It betrays all that is wrong in so called progressive thinking. And I say that classing myself as one of those living in a remain bubble at the time of the Brexit vote so completely blindsided by the stupidity of the leave voters.
A little wave @Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g I have a figurine of the wondrous canine perched on my bookshelf. True to form he is sitting with his hind leg in the air having a good old scratch behind the ear.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 03/08/2025 10:06

Oh gosh, how lovely! I must look for one of those.

usedtobeaylis · 03/08/2025 10:19

Brilliant article. When I'm talking about this case with TRAs I always make a point of highlighting class as well as sex, but they don't care which just emphasises how much of their leftiness is performative. I'm concerned with the sex and class based dynamics in dynamics because I'm a left wing wing feminist (and I'm a feminist because I'm concerned with those things). They're not concerned with either of those things so what are they?

InterrobangsArePureBias · 03/08/2025 10:19

DisappearingGirl · 03/08/2025 07:50

Janice Turner article - headline looks interesting but I don't have a share token sorry!

https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/class-snobbery-is-at-heart-of-nhs-gender-war-mz8pdsw3s

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