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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"Biological sex is a multidimensional variable with various components" - Thread 3

164 replies

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 27/07/2025 09:55

Starting a new thread so I can respond to @suggestionsplease1 's most recent post.

OP posts:
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Annoyedone · 27/07/2025 21:04

suggestionsplease1 · 27/07/2025 21:02

I mean I really don't know what you're asking for here - are you wanting me to say that as a result of gender self ID every single woman in the UK will have two pounds added to their pension or something?

I have pointed out the disadvantages to some women that come from implementing this policy, and I have made the case that, in general, as trans and minority rights are protected so to do women benefit, as the cultures who focus on rights for the most vulnerable and addressing discrimination against them also have the highest levels of equality and well-being for women.

So you’re saying women get no benefit for giving away their sex based rights to single sex spaces? In that case, no Thankyou. Males of whatever identity can use the male facilities. If they don’t like it, not women’s problem.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 27/07/2025 21:04

suggestionsplease1 · 27/07/2025 21:02

I mean I really don't know what you're asking for here - are you wanting me to say that as a result of gender self ID every single woman in the UK will have two pounds added to their pension or something?

I have pointed out the disadvantages to some women that come from implementing this policy, and I have made the case that, in general, as trans and minority rights are protected so to do women benefit, as the cultures who focus on rights for the most vulnerable and addressing discrimination against them also have the highest levels of equality and well-being for women.

How do women benefit from their single sex spaces being made inclusive of any man who decides he wants access to them?

OP posts:
TheKeatingFive · 27/07/2025 21:05

suggestionsplease1 · 27/07/2025 21:02

I mean I really don't know what you're asking for here - are you wanting me to say that as a result of gender self ID every single woman in the UK will have two pounds added to their pension or something?

I have pointed out the disadvantages to some women that come from implementing this policy, and I have made the case that, in general, as trans and minority rights are protected so to do women benefit, as the cultures who focus on rights for the most vulnerable and addressing discrimination against them also have the highest levels of equality and well-being for women.

Women, in the main, don't want to give up their single sex spaces.

Why should they? The only reasoning seems to be that this group of men want them.

Hard no.

ItsCoolForCats · 27/07/2025 21:06

suggestionsplease1 · 27/07/2025 20:44

The reality is that gender self ID laws have not been abused in the countries that they have been implemented in.

Can you show me evidence to the contrary?

I wonder what motivated this man who.murdered his wife and children to begin identifying as a woman? 🤔

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/quebec-trans-woman-convicted-triple-203210485.html

Quebec trans woman convicted of triple homicide to serve time in men's prison

Levana Ballouz, a trans woman who was convicted of murdering her partner and their two children on Montreal's South Shore, will serve her sentence in a men's prison.Correctional Service of Canada (CSC) spokesperson Kevin Antonucci confirmed the decisio...

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/quebec-trans-woman-convicted-triple-203210485.html

WithSilverBells · 27/07/2025 21:10

So there is no benefit for women on a population level really. The best you can say is that you have had a bit of a poke around using ChatGPT and it seems that other countries don't have fetishists, predators, AGPs, misogynists, voyeurs or exhibitionists - or at least if they do they are very well-behaved and don't take advantage of self-ID

BackToLurk · 27/07/2025 21:12

suggestionsplease1 · 27/07/2025 21:02

I mean I really don't know what you're asking for here - are you wanting me to say that as a result of gender self ID every single woman in the UK will have two pounds added to their pension or something?

I have pointed out the disadvantages to some women that come from implementing this policy, and I have made the case that, in general, as trans and minority rights are protected so to do women benefit, as the cultures who focus on rights for the most vulnerable and addressing discrimination against them also have the highest levels of equality and well-being for women.

I have made the case that, in general, as trans and minority rights are protected so to do women benefit

You really haven't.

And you still haven't explained why you think some males are less of a threat than others.

Annoyedone · 27/07/2025 21:13

BackToLurk · 27/07/2025 21:12

I have made the case that, in general, as trans and minority rights are protected so to do women benefit

You really haven't.

And you still haven't explained why you think some males are less of a threat than others.

So women only get crumbs of rights if transpeople get everything they demand? Wow. Your agenda is showing mate.

lifeturnsonadime · 27/07/2025 21:22

suggestionsplease1 · 27/07/2025 20:44

The reality is that gender self ID laws have not been abused in the countries that they have been implemented in.

Can you show me evidence to the contrary?

you have demonstrated that you know it has been abused in this country in prisons.

It is entirely illogical to think that it won't be abused by men in all single sex spaces for women.

Especially with all of the evidence that it is.

And that's ignoring consent.

I have no idea what has made you back the men Suggestions, why does the safety and consent of women matter so little to you?

And I'm not interested in your 'evidence' we know that children were sexually assaulted in the toilet of a supermarket by one of the men that you seek to protect. Are they collateral damage and irrelevant to you?

myplace · 27/07/2025 21:34

ItsCoolForCats · 27/07/2025 21:06

I wonder what motivated this man who.murdered his wife and children to begin identifying as a woman? 🤔

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/quebec-trans-woman-convicted-triple-203210485.html

I’m very pleased that on a case by case basis this man was placed in a male prison.

I am less pleased that despite being described as very dangerous and manipulative, the judge and newspaper are both content to refer to him by female pronouns.

What has he done to earn that respect? Why should anyone working in the prison service guard their speech to accommodate him?

Why don’t women deserve the respect of a category and descriptor that applies only to them?

And I think the silence from suggestions and Tandora means that yes, anyone who says they are trans is trans.

The men using women’s washrooms to target children- trans.
The man who killed his family and transitioned in the hope of getting a women’s prison- trans.
Barbie Kardashian, that monstrous woman hater- trans.
Isla Bryson- trans.

I have no interest in trans people who do not break the law and who respect single sex spaces. Rock on. Do what you need to.

Those who abuse their identity to abuse women children- I will point and say ‘that’s a man!’

You of course can carry on respecting their pronouns, as everyone who says they are trans is trans.

Keeptoiletssafe · 27/07/2025 21:37

@suggestionsplease1 This shows two people who are critically vulnerable. The single sex toilet design is the one on your left.
Single sex toilets are safer for everyone. This design also helps prevent assaults.

This is more likely to happen to people who are medically vulnerable, including invisible disabilities. Also those suffering for mental health conditions.

"Biological sex is a multidimensional variable with various components" - Thread 3
Keeptoiletssafe · 27/07/2025 21:46

Too late to edit but that second paragraph relates to collapse. Which is much more common in toilets than people realise.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 27/07/2025 22:04

@suggestionsplease1 There are several reasons why it is not helpful to look at what has happened in other countries which have brought in self ID.

One reason, as various people have noted, is that there is no guarantee that any relevant data is being collected. Indeed, I doubt any government would want to collect data which might show its decision to introduce self ID to be a catastrophic one.

Another reason is that all countries are different and the impact of self ID depends largely on what transgender people were allowed to do before self ID and what they were allowed to do after self ID.

The UK does not have self ID, and yet, up until the Supreme Court judgment it was accepted by most people that trans people could use single sex spaces for the opposite sex. My understanding of the Equality Act was that they could be excluded from single sex spaces for the opposite sex, but that it was essentially discretionary, and up to the organisers of that space to decide. The Supreme Court judgment came as a surprise to me, albeit a very welcome one.

In countries where trans people were already using single sex spaces for the opposite sex prior to self ID, or where single sex spaces are uncommon, I would not expect to see any measurable detriment to women and girls following the introduction of self ID, because the harm to them would already have been baked in.

Hypothetically, in countries where trans people are banned from using single sex spaces for the opposite sex unless they have changed their legal sex, I would expect the introduction of self ID to have a measurable impact. But I am not aware of any such countries.

In these countries, access to single sex spaces in public places is granted on the basis of trust. Self ID or no self ID, nobody is checking IDs on toilet doors so it is largely irrelevant. Where self ID may have a real impact is in the limited scenarios where access to a single sex space is gatekept by someone in a position of authority, such as prisons or hospitals. And we have seen a high number of bad outcomes in both those environments, both in the UK and in countries with self ID such as Ireland (the home of the fragrant "Barbie Kardashian").

In the UK, we could bring in self ID tomorrow, and, providing the Equality Act was not amended to make "sex" mean certificated sex, it would not change a great deal for trans people, who would still not be allowed to use single sex spaces for the opposite sex.

So when you talk about self ID, I am not sure whether this is really what you mean. Are you really talking about the ability to change your legal sex on a declarative basis? Because in the UK changing your legal sex now has very limited impact post Supreme Court judgment.

Or are you talking about trans people being able to self identify as members of the opposite sex for the purposes of using single sex spaces for the opposite sex? Because that is not self ID, and it happens in many countries, even those without self ID, and including the UK until the Supreme Court handed down its judgment in April.

So it would be helpful to know what you are actually talking about when you refer to countries which have implemented self ID.

OP posts:
McSilkson · 27/07/2025 22:04

I'm sorry, but what is going on here...? This thread is virtually unreadable. I thought this was a discussion forum, not a place to quote ChatGPT's bunk at each other. It's extremely thought- and discussion-terminating. Is this the future of human debate and philosophy...? ChatGPT quote wars...? 😒Count me out.

Keeptoiletssafe · 27/07/2025 22:15

McSilkson · 27/07/2025 22:04

I'm sorry, but what is going on here...? This thread is virtually unreadable. I thought this was a discussion forum, not a place to quote ChatGPT's bunk at each other. It's extremely thought- and discussion-terminating. Is this the future of human debate and philosophy...? ChatGPT quote wars...? 😒Count me out.

I have never used ChatGPT before so it was interesting it threw out an American-centric version of what I already knew from my research. I am not using it in discussion other than that one post. It confirms single sex toilets are better by design. Particularly they can be lifesaving for those at their most vulnerable.

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