"Biological sex is a multidimensional variable with various components" - Thread 3

[MissScarletInTheBallroom]

Starting a new thread so I can respond to @suggestionsplease1 's most recent post.

No one needs to prove that there's a greater risk to women.

Womem say no. End of story.

We keep men out of women's spaces for safeguarding reasons. There are literally zero grounds to exempt this one group of men from that requirement.

Haha, what do you think I am doing here? I read nothing but rebuttals to my thoughts on this matter, my mind is not changed.

Why do you think some groups of males are less of a risk to women than other groups of males?

No one is required to change your mind. Who cares what you think?

But you don't get to consent on behalf of other women. You know that right?

I mean, elderly and disabled men probably are less of a risk to women's safety.

Yet no one's used that as an argument to let these groups access women's spaces.

Yes, and to come at it from a view that centers the men - why should some groups of men that are at greater risk of male violence be "protected" by being granted entry to female spaces?

flip it:

What’s the BENEFIT to women if they allow trans identified men into their single sex spaces?

where’s the evidence of benefit for women?

On the same score, what’s the benefit for children if trans identified men are allowed free access to women’s toilets?

What’s the benefit for vulnerable children with cognitive and physical disabilities if trans identified men are allowed to give personal care with no second thought?

Exactly this.

In the UK, there have been two mass shootings. In Dunblane, and in Hungerford. So we banned almost all private gun ownership.

Meanwhile in the US, mass shootings continue to be a common occurrence.

Who cares what other countries do? If they want to put their populations at risk, that's their lookout.

Maybe in Denmark no woman has ever been harmed by a trans identifying man, in which case, bully for Denmark. We're not Denmark. In the UK it has happened, so we take steps to prevent it from happening again.

The father of Katie Dolatowski's ten year old victim was waiting outside the Morrisons toilets whilst his daughter was being sexually assaulted by a trans identifying man. If I met a man like Katie Dolatowski in the women's toilets I would get the fuck out of there and (post Supreme Court judgment) call for help. If I met the victim's father in there, and he looked apologetically at me and said he was making sure his daughter was OK, I wouldn't be in the least bit frightened. I would explain that it still wasn't appropriate for him to be in there and offer to supervise her myself while he waited outside.

That's because you cannot reason someone out of a position they did not reason themselves into.

Nobody is expecting you to change your mind.

This is for the benefit of any lurkers still minded to "be kind".

Women and children are sold a line that being kind to these men benefits them, morally.

it’s a socially manufactured moral benefit.

and it’s opinion, that they will benefit. not fact.

Statistics are peculiar things.
Imagine:
Utopia is in anarchy. It no longer has a viable police force. Its crime rates are through the roof and it is bottom of the international league of law abiding countries.
Till suddenly one day it's top of the league. No crimes at all. Overrnight.
If you decriminalise everything, there aren't any "crimes" to report.

And by the same measure, if you make misgendering a trans person a hate crime, don't be surprised to find that hate crimes against trans people go through the roof.

Meanwhile, the rate of hate crimes against women remains low because being a woman isn't one of the characteristics covered by the hate crime legislation, so you can confidently assert that trans people are much more likely to be the victim of a hate crime than women.

Theres no reason all men, including trans identifying ones need to use the female toilets.

The reason why they want access includes the idea that while theres a door that says women only, and they cannot enter, its a constant reminder that they are not women. There are also the very male ideas that they have the right to go anywhere they please, have given women permission to have space, and determine why they have the space.

So trans identifying men have redefined the reason for single sex spaces - they have become validation areas, not just for themselves, but a test for everyone else. If they enter unchallenged they either assume they pass, or they know they have the power to control the use of the area.

They have also decided that they are a 'safe space', where they determine the accept risk.

Men are the default human and women the support animal in many cases.

Men are in danger in male prisons, hospital wards, male toilets and changing rooms. No proof is needed because danger includes their feelings.

The solution - men can be placed in womens prisons, hospital wards, toilets and changing rooms.

Any dignity for women is not considered and physical risk to women needs proof - so we have to wait for an attack to happen. But one isnt enough. So we need a statistical significant number of attacks to happen. But more likely a huge scandal needs before anything is done.

Trans women have an offending pattern the same as their sex and a larger percentage of the tw prison population are in there for violent or sexual offences than the male prison population.
https://fairplayforwomen.com/transgender-male-criminality-sex-offences/

"MtF transitioners were over 6 times more likely to be convicted of an offence than female comparators and 18 times more likely to be convicted of a violent offence. The group had no statistically significant differences from other natal males, for convictions in general or for violent offending."

UK Parliament Committees

From what I've seen in a few searches just now, and I've taken the most quoted figures (and what seemed like the least dramatic)..
32% of male prison population are in for violent or sexual offences as opposed to
48% of trans women prison population.
And the good news in England anyway is that the 51 trans prisoners in women's prisons are either trans men or "non-binary" females.

So what benefit do women get from allowing male people into their spaces? You’ve stated the benefits for the males but not for the women

I'll never ever get my head round women who wave aside the risk and dignity of other women in favour of male wishes.

I have slightly more sympathy for those who hold magical thinking and believe that trans women are not actually men than for those who know full well they are men and don't give a shit about women anyway.

The other issue with @suggestionsplease1’s link is that it’s from 2018.

there’s certainly more trans identifying males now in the US where that study was done.

And probably more at risk from physical assaults.

Well in terms of how policy might be enacted, plenty of women are likely to be caught in the crossfire too. I have more butch looking friends and they are genuinely concerned they are going to be harassed for using toilets because some people think they are male. They are women who will be disadvantaged by the enforcement of this law.

And before anyone says "we all know what a woman looks like", remember the time FWR dedicated a thread to harassing the winner of a running competition because they wrongly believed that the person was a transwoman and shouldn't have been taking the winning place from a woman. There was post after post harassing the woman, a mother of 3 I believe, and eventually the OP had to issue a grovelling apology when it came to the winners attention and she complained to Mumsnet.

There were similar misgenderings during a more recent post here about a women in science event where posters wrongly speculated about the sex of women in a photograph.

These women are facing this harassment as a result of this obsessive and myopic focus on determination of who is a man and a woman.

Women were never harassed before men started ignoring normal social conventions and being where they shouldn't be. Would be great to get back to that.

It's amazing, Suggestions, that in your head, women are always to blame.

Men and their feelings always come first for you. Baffling.

I try to limit time spent debating with adults determined that women must have no boundaries from men and who seek to remove from the statute book the sex crimes of voyeurism and indecent exposure.

We know that these crimes are gateway crimes to rape and murder so when they openly expose their lack of concern for the safety of women and girls I see little to respect in any other anti social / anti women / dangerous arguments they might spout.