"Biological sex is a multidimensional variable with various components" - Thread 3

[MissScarletInTheBallroom]

Starting a new thread so I can respond to @suggestionsplease1 's most recent post.

@suggestionsplease1 Why do you think some males are less of a threat to women than other males?
Why do you want to give some males, but not others, access to single sex spaces?

You can illustrate your reasons with a chart if you want

*Disassembling

No. You’re not quite getting it. What material benefit will women get for allowing males with a trans identity into their spaces. You’ve done a lot of waffle about helping transpeople. Now what about women? What do we get out of this?

Or a diagram! We love a diagram.

Not much of a benefit is it? Comply, or the transmen and butch women are stuffed. Was hoping for something that would be an easier sell tbh

The reality is that gender self ID laws have not been abused in the countries that they have been implemented in.

Can you show me evidence to the contrary?

The top countries in the world for women who have solid track records over decades of strong performance for women have seen fit to make this decision - after so many years of so many good decisions for women why do you suddenly think that these countries are suddenly now making a bad decision for decision?

The Irish government / politicians who voted self id in hadn't a clue about the implications of what they were supporting. Many have said as much.

And what's your message to the women in Limerick Prison (I posted about them upthread). Or do you just not care about these women?

Why do you think some males are less of a threat to women than other males?
Why do you want to give some males, but not others, access to single sex spaces?

I've already asked you several times why you think it is likely that masculine presenting female people will be confused for feminine presenting male people but...tumbleweed.

I agree that the part of the Supreme Court judgment about trans men potentially being excluded from both men's and women's spaces is problematic. I can absolutely see the logic for it but it wasn't a question that was asked and it was only partially answered. They didn't elaborate on what passing trans men are supposed to do it there is no unisex facility available. However...in reality...we've had trans men on here saying that they try to avoid both the men's and the women's anyway. They avoid the women's because they don't want to cause alarm to women (or out themselves) and they avoid the men's because they don't feel safe. They are already seeking out unisex alternatives or using disabled facilities. Ultimately people who choose to alter their appearance to the point where they are no longer recognisable as a member of their own sex do need to take some responsibility for their choices. And I see no evidence that trans men are not taking responsibility for their own choices. I doubt this will change much, if anything, for passing trans men.

People have pointed out the flaws in your "but the top countries for women in the WORLD!!!!" analysis. It seems you ignore any posts pointing out that statistics don't tell the whole truth and explaining why these countries might not be as great for women as they seem.

PS - trans identifying men are not among the most vulnerable members of society. Not even close.

Well according to the TRa Isla Bryson, Katie Dolowski and Karen White are not trans even though they are men claiming to be women. So either transwomen are just as dangerous to women as other men or men are pretending to be trans to abuse women, therefore abusing self I.D. Which is it? And either way, males don’t belong in women’s spaces.

What do you mean by "abused" in this context?

Well take my situation - I'm in several lesbian groups and the Supreme Court judgment seemed to indicate that trans women could be barred from these groups, if they consist of over 15 members I believe, I'm sure someone will correct me. Now we do accept trans women who assert a lesbian identity to our groups, and they have been very valuable members who have contributed a lot in terms of organization, participation and support for all other members. Some have been with us for over a decade. It would be a real loss to us and to them if they were forced out of groups that they have been a welcome part of for years. That would just seem to be callously cruel.

Make it a unisex group then

Manipulated successfully by bad faith actors

Er… I’m not sure I can put it im smaller words. What. Benefit. Do. Women. As. A whole. Get. For. Letting. Males. With. A trans. Identity. Into. Female. Spaces.

And your groups can allow whoever they want into them. They just can’t claim they’re single sex spaces. If you want a mixed sex group, knock yourself out. No one cares. But then if you get a man without a trans identity wanting to join and you say no, he can sue for discrimination. You can’t claim it’s a single sex space and then let some males in and not others. So it’s totally up to you.

No, I mean, can you give some concrete examples of the kind of behaviour you would say was abusing self ID laws.

So are you saying Isla Bryson is not trans?

Isn't it a shame that trans identifying men insisted on forcing themselves into places where they aren't wanted, resulting in a high profile court case where the most senior judges in the country said, "Not only should you not be in these places where you aren't wanted, you also shouldn't be in some places where you are wanted."

You have the Scottish government to thank for that one.

My bothered bag is empty.

Look at the countries who have implemented it and research their instances of where gender self ID has been abused.

I cannot give you examples of what has not occurred.

You think Barbie Khardashian hasn't abused self ID?

You mean, like Isla Bryson?

If there is a loophole, deeply dodgy people will be through it before you can say 'ferret up a trouser leg'.

Self ID is a safeguarding nightmare. If a country with self ID is saying that there have been no problems, I'd love to know who is collecting the star, how the stats are collected and so on. You don't find what you don't look for.

I don't even understand what you're asking me to search for.

Self ID gives men permission to be women, for any reason they like. So how would taking full advantage of that be abusing anything? Surely they would be using the batshit, misogynistic self ID law for its intended purpose?

I mean I really don't know what you're asking for here - are you wanting me to say that as a result of gender self ID every single woman in the UK will have two pounds added to their pension or something?

I have pointed out the disadvantages to some women that come from implementing this policy, and I have made the case that, in general, as trans and minority rights are protected so to do women benefit, as the cultures who focus on rights for the most vulnerable and addressing discrimination against them also have the highest levels of equality and well-being for women.

Also, if a woman is sexually assaulted in the loos by a man, but the country in question has self-ID, how do the courts record the assailant's identity if he says he's a woman?

ETA:
https://murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2022/06/20/gender-recognition-reform-in-an-international-context/
'There appears to have been no form of systematic impact monitoring or in-depth evaluation of effects on women and girls in those countries that have introduced self-declaration. For example, no jurisdiction appears to have recorded the level of incidents of sexual or violent offending in women-only spaces, before and after changing the law.'
Super. No one's looking. Slow hand-clap.

Why do women have to prove that we’ve been assaulted or attacked by a male, however he identifies, to be able to say NO to any males in our spaces???

It’s never been proved that trans identifying men will be harmed in men’s spaces, but the rhetoric is always that women must make space and forsake our own boundaries and comfort to appease these narcissistic men.

We're told ‘ if you don’t like it, use a cubicle’ … well right back at ya…. If we’d be so very safe from men behind a flimsy door, why can’t TiM’s do the same …..

I suppose that doesn’t gain them the validation or the ultimate power they crave.