Non binary

[loveforautumn]

Hello!
Not sure if this is the right group but here goes..

My sons just come down to me and said his friend is non binary and he thinks he is. He's 12, his first year in secondary school so its a crazy year for him anyway and wonder if hes picked it up from others but I replied with that's fine you do you, also as your happy im happy

I have no idea what it really means so had to Google it & I still dont fully understand what it means?
He's changed over the last few months hes a very placid, lovely child and just floats around. Im so happy he felt he could come and tell me & he thanked me for being ok with it

Has anyone else had this? Did you do anything or just let them float through finding themselves?

Non binary people are people who just do not fit into either of the two binary sexes, neither of them matches, or "feels" like them. Like any issues with sex and gender, it's pretty hard to understand if you are not affected by it, because when you never had those doubts, it's like trying to explain to describe color to someone who was born blind - to use a hasty example.

And the best thing you can do as a parent is to let them take the lead and be supportive. If they will want some help with a place to unpack it, help them find meetups of similarly minded people, therapy can also go far - group or solo. But the key for you is to be open minded and accepting, including of the fact that this will be something you will struggle to wrap your head around for a long while, even with the best of effort as it's just an issue you likely cannot even comprehend someone having. In the end most people are cis, and they never spent a second of their life seriously questioning it.

If you want a deeper dive, I can recommend two books: "The Transgender Child" by Stephanie Brill, and "The Gender Creative Child" by Diane Ehresaft, which speak directly of those issues from a parental perspective. Granted Non binary does not always fall under the transgender umbrella, down to individual, but the experiences in that book are very appliable.

And as final note, you are clearly doing something right, as the kid felt they can trust you with something so serious - many hide away, fearing a bad reaction from a parent, so keep going, accept, support and love your child.

It doesn’t mean anything. It’s based on sexist stereotypes, and it’s a popular label when people feel they don’t “fit” in some way. Everyone who has ever lived is “non binary” as people aren’t “binary”. No one is fully a walking embodiment of all the sex role stereotypes for our sex.

It could be that he thinks that the only way to be a man is to be confident, aggressive, muscular, and violent. If that doesn't feel right to him, then "non binary" can be a way of opting out of those expectations.

He may also be uncomfortable about the changes his body is going through and worried that others will start perceiving him as a physical threat. Again, a non-binary identity can be a way of trying to remain unthreatening.

Does he have a variety of male role models in his life? Both public figures and also men he interacts with regularly.

I'd encourage him to think about the kind of man he wants to be and to find examples of men like that who he admires. It's great that he's talking to you; keep that conversation going!

I wouldn’t necessarily challenge it directly, but don’t indulge it any more than you have to either. Chances are he’ll grow out of it.

Please take ODP, suggestion with a shovelful of salt. Ehrensaft thinks that a toddler pulling out hair clips, or unpopping a babygrow (proof of them ’making a dress’)is evidence of a non verbal child being trans or non binary. Which is obvious cobblers.

love your kid, say ’ok , that’s nice dear’ and ask him what he wants for supper.

everyone, other than Barbie and GI Joe is ’non binary’, it’s called having a personality.

Many - possibly even most - people reject the regressive and harmful gender stereotypes that society likes to impose on male and female people. There is no need for this to become an “identity”. Encourage your child to recognise that very few people totally conform to the stereotypes and it is actively normal to reject them (the stereotypes) but this doesn’t change their sex or turn them into some sort of “third/neutral sex”. We all have unique personalities that are not dictated by our sex and there is no need to box ourselves - or others - into stereotyped labels. It is entirely normal to reject others imposing these on you - which is why so many of us are uncomfortable with the way gender ideology reinforces gender stereotypes rather than breaking them down.

Its based on regressive, sexist stereotypes of what males and females should like and be like e.g. boys play football and wear blue etc. It's easy for any of us to not fit into these stereotypes on any given day. Explain to him about sexist stereotypes, I'm sure he'll get it. I've been talking to my dc about it since they were about 5 and they understand and can call out sexist attitudes. Every cell in his body is male, he just is, he doesn't need to be or do anything differently. He is enough.

It doesn’t mean anything, other than he doesn’t think he fits into the stereotypes of being a boy/man.
Just reassure him that whilst he will always be a boy, he can be absolutely any kind of boy he wants to be. Not all boys have to be into football/rugby/cars.

This, exactly.

You may want to be aware that the Diane Ehresaft pointed to by a PP heavily promoted the “false memory” and “satanic abuse” cases of the 80s and 90s.

You could take a look at the podcast Gender, a Wider Lens. They interview lots of people who come at this from many different perspectives.

OP

I would be highly wary of taking advice from some posters who say to you that you should encourage children to go to meet ups with like minded people.

There are some posters, one already on this thread, who cannot recognise safeguarding failures when they see them. Even for their own children.

And if you read books, please look at every book recommendation with an eye to whether those books are appropriate. Check out the authors carefully and read even the adverse reviews.

Diane Ehresaft has said at conferences that she believes that boy babies that unsnap their onsies to free their legs are making ‘dresses’ and showing parents they are really girls. And that toddler girls that pull out hair barettes are showing parents that they are boys. This is incredibly harmful and negligent . So any book by this author needs to be viewed with this in mind.

He is 12 and just doing what he things he has to do to be friends with someone.

When Kids Say They're Trans by Stella O'Malley would be what I would turn to here:
www.amazon.co.uk/When-Kids-Say-Theyre-Trans-ebook/dp/B0C5Q276C2

Especially ones who just told everyone on a different thread that they introduced their kids to bondage and kink and all is well.

Yep.

He sounds like a nice kid, OP. Its a pretty meaningless label, that he probably will move on from in due course.

(Most people would qualify as 'no binary' on the face of it.)

My only concern would be if he gets involved with any activists who may try to suggest there's anything wrong with his healthy body, or tell him that people won't accept him for being 'non binary'. Some groomers use these identities as a way to access vulnerable children . But as he's just 12 you'd be on the lookout for that anyway.

Chances are its something they've been offered as an option.
My niece was the same pre puberty, we kept finding. lists round the house , was she a girl ,a boy ,gay, queer. We said nothing just watched and waited, talked about it in general terms but not directly.
And then puberty hit, and what ever her sexuality she's definitely a woman. Non binary flew out the window. She's 20 and thriving.

With regards to seeking advice and support groups, on this board we have a few male posters who say they are female people who are very quick to give parents advice. At least one has told us that they are in roles in support groups where they provide advice to young people on being trans.

What has become apparent over their posting history is that these particular posters have no knowledge of how safeguarding for children and vulnerable young people work. They cannot recognise where adults should have boundaries around children, they don’t understand safeguarding children and they have written posts that shine bright lights on their lack of understanding about consent.

Please be very careful about advice given by people who show such lapses in safeguarding and consent.

We have also seen recently convictions and allegations about people from such support groups / lobby groups for horrendous abuse or lapses in safeguarding.

Stephen Ireland, recently convicted is one in a group from Surry. Mermaids had Jacob Breslow as a trustee, there are threads on MN about Breslow. Mermaids also had a man who worked for them who did porn.

I can recommend Bayswater Support as the first place to seek support. It is for parents and it will have plenty of advice.

'help them find meetups of similarly minded people,'

Please don't do this OP.

Some of these people would not have good intentions towards your son.

I'd stick to 'that's nice dear' and give it no airtime.

The vast, vast majority of people are 'non binary' when it comes to gender stereotypes. There is no 'right' way to be a boy - make sure you reinforce that for your son.

He’s 12 and his friend is non-binary? - it’s a phase, if his friend was massively into wrestling he’d have come and asked you if he could watch wrestling instead. Ignore it and he will move on.

I agree, I'd also say don't do any research because in an effort to support your son, you could unintentionally make this a bigger thing than it is. Just watch and wait, if he's gets more into then find out more about it, but follow at a pace that he sets, it could be just ' a phase' all kids go through many of them, that's what childhood is for.

Good article here on non-binary:

https://lilymaynard.com/non-binary-just-like-everyone-else/

Here is Diane Ehrensaft describing the signs of children with gender identities. This is very disturbing. Because some children, especially those who might be ASD, could be doing this. Girls simply might hate having something in their hair. They might hate that sensation. So too children in onsies. They might find them tight, they might hate the texture, or…. they might like unsnapping their onsies because it is fun.

This person is speaking from a deep ideological position not from a position of giving a balanced diagnosis.

Seriously, any person should be very careful recommending a book written by this person. Or, it might show that person’s own ideological beliefs.

I think that a parent probably should get their head around what gender identity theory is. Because it is likely they will come across this more and more as their child gets older. If they don’t know anything about what is happening, it might be helpful to at least get basic knowledge.

They might also be less likely to take poor advice from highly invested people and groups too.

Diane Ehresaft has said at conferences that she believes that boy babies that unsnap their onsies to free their legs are making ‘dresses’ and showing parents they are really girls. And that toddler girls that pull out hair barettes are showing parents that they are boys. This is incredibly harmful and negligent . So any book by this author needs to be viewed with this in mind.

I remember reading about that.

What utter, unmitigated horseshit.

How have these nut jobs convinced anyone to take them seriously? The stupidity is off the charts.