Is there any way to explain to people that being against TRA ideology doesn't make me right wing?

[UnlockedXCX]

I don't know why it feels so much like admitting to be homophobic or racist. I know it isn't, but I don't quite know how to place that into words.

Is it because what they claim to be transphobic is just reality (even TRAs admit AMABs can't become AFABs and vice versa), whereas homophobia and racism are indeed built upon stereotypes?

I'm also not going to bring up grooming gangs as I 100% believe it is a rightwing touchstone issue and that the moral panic is fuelled by racism and islamophobia.

@AuntiePushpa Why is it racist, right wing and/or islamophobic to say that those perpetuating the abuse were disproportionately Pakistani men?

It's another thought terminating cliché. Tedious. And ridiculous like the constant claims that organisations like FWS are receiving wads of shady, right wing funding - it's evident nonsense but repeated ad finitum by those happy to chant the mantras - as Lorna Slater found to her cost.

I'm not sure you will be able to plead reality to people who have jettisoned critical thinking to such an extent and particularily at this point when the whole edifice is falling down.

JKR is a supporter of the Labour Party, so is left leaning.

If someone is a supporter of JKR, then they’re left leaning.
If someone is against JKR, then they are right leaning.

Something like that 😂

No one has to ‘stick’ with Left or Right wing ideology/policies. That’s why we’ve been gifted independent thought.

You could explain that you would fight alongside trans-identified people for any legitimate rights that they are being denied, but that you are not going to support the fetishists and misogynists. Remind them that the progressive Left had a brush with enabling paedophilia in the '70s and is prone to being a bit too naive about human nature sometimes. Explain that this doesn't make you right wing, just a sensible left-winger.

It has often been said on here that you can’t reason someone out of a position that they didn’t reason themselves into.

So @UnlockedXCX it really does depend on the person you are talking to. Were their opinions were formed after considering facts and coming to a position, or is it based on emotions and feelings and “be kind”. If the former, you have the chance of asking questions and presenting other data. If the latter then you have a much harder job and to be perfectly honest I’d agree to disagree and not discuss the topic. It is easier when you have the advantage of being post menopausal and having run out of fucks to give about what people think of me.

https://deadwildroses.com/2019/10/07/handy-venn-diagrams-the-radical-feminist-position-on-gender/

I'd ask if they're American. If yes, I'd feel a bit sorry for them. If no, if point out that the whole world doesn't actually have to follow America's binary thinking on gender and that there is a third way (feminism) which rejects stereotypes; embraces difference; and acknowledges reality.

I'd point out that gender ideology and gender conservatism are both two sides of the same gender-loving coin. Both rely on regressive gender stereotypes which inherently opress women.

I'd point out that gender ideology is the marriage of capitalism and big pharma: selling identities and creating patients for life.

I'd point out that gender ideology is homophobic (trans the gay kids and force lesbians to do dick), abelist (trans the autistic kids) and misogynist (encourages straight men to disregard women's boundaries, keep transwomen's dicks intact but encourage mastectomies for transmen and NB afab).

I'd point out that one of the effects of the rapid spread of of this regressive, patriarchal neo religion has been to weaken and split the political left. As a socialist that bothers me deeply. Who stands to gain from a decimated left wing?

The first trans MP was a Tory.

I agree with Andrew Doyle who said this week that there's no such thing any more as "right wing" and "left wing". What we have now are two opposing factions as before, except now they are the liberals and the authoritarians. The "terf" side are the liberals.

He's (MP) also just pled guilty to harrassing his ex wife -

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce3vqxp9nn3o.amp#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=17501825210349&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com

There's very little point arguing with them, it's as pointless as playing chess with a pigeon: it knocks over all the pieces, shits everywhere and struts about like its won.

Soz I'm going to pinch this.🥷

They say it's equivalent to being homophobic or racist just to shut you up so they don't have to explain their logic.

I'm an atheist too, but my religious friends do not ostracise me, try to get me sacked, or throw soup at me for not sharing their beliefs.

OP I think it is fairly fruitless, some people are a lost cause. They aren’t rationally listening to logic, facts or reason, because if they did there’s no possible way that they could continue to hold their position.

It’s not a left v right issue, it’s a realism v anti-realism position. The only way they can continue to maintain their position is to double down and control the narrative by silencing people and labelling them as transphobic.

I’ve always been centrist/ left of centre but I’ve felt politically homeless for the last few years.

I feel your pain. In my first election I cast a vote for the Communist Party candidate , Solly Kay. Since then I have mellowed a bit . However the Overton Window has moved so far to the right that I suspect the hated Tories of my youth would be considered raving Marxists today. Nonetheless I am routinely called right wing ,transphobic and anti-Semitic online. Well I used to be. I don't engage now. And I still vote left. Just now I am reading The Echo Chamber by John Boyne. Even this shall pass away , comrade.

Interesting angle from the BBC.

"A former Conservative MP will stand trial accused of harassment.
Jamie Wallis, who is now known as Katie Wallis and uses female pronouns, represented Bridgend from 2019 to 2024."

"Ms Wallis, who is the first MP to openly begin the process of gender transitioning, told the court: "Legally I am known as Jamie, but I prefer to be known as Katie.""

Is the clarity due to the Supreme Court ruling? Unlikely I think. Or is it because Wallis is a regarded as a dastardly Tory, so the left-wing BBC doesn't refer to him as his preferred category of woman? A Tory who stalked his wife is probably much worse than a cat-blending murderer.

For what purpose? Your friends don't need it and your enemies won't believe it.

Get them to explain themselves to you. Agree on whatever you find you have common ground on. If they will do this, I have yet to speak to a single person who actually disagrees with significant amounts of what I think about the factual elements of this issue. But they would still label me a terf and themselves as not a terf, based on language, vibes and tribes. Oh, and ageism.

Part of the problem is the current knee jerk leftwing equation of "minority" with "marginalized and oppressed" and "tiny minority" with "even more marginalized and oppressed". I don't know why the Left have fallen for this so badly, since traditionally the "enemies of the people" have tended to be minorities: there have always been far fewer nobles than peasants, fewer masters than slaves, fewer bosses than workers. Privilege doesn't always require superior numbers, just access to the right sort of power.

Some minorities are indeed disadvantaged, but in the UK (specifically; I wouldn't like to comment on elsewhere) I don't think this is true of trans people. Certainly from the time Stonewall added the T, and probably before that, TRAs had input into all aspects of the establishment to such an extent that they could get organisational policies changed in their favour without having to go the long way round and campaign openly for changes in the law. Trans self-ID was not the law, but organisations behaved as though it was, to the detriment of women's rights.

That's why the recent Supreme Court ruling on what the definition of a woman already was, and its implications, has come as such a rude shock to so many TRAs; they were used to being favoured. It was dissenters like Maya Forstater, Kathleen Stock and Jo Phoenix, to name just a few of many, who were hounded out of their jobs for daring to hold that sex matters and had to go to law to uphold their rights. And another (and genuinely disadvantaged) minority, lesbians, who have had to go undercover in order to exercise their right to same-sex association without the presence of men.

I’d like an explanation as to why “right wing” means “bad people”. Half of the planet’s population is “right wing”. In its traditional definition it means certain fiscal and conservative values, views on size of government, etc. I find the viewpoint that anyone who votes Tory or Republican is evil an incredibly small-minded perspective.

So if someone accuses me of being “right wing” (I’m not), I would reply “so?”

When people accuse me of “transphobia” I equally laugh and shrug. Meaningless accusation.

The only reason they’re accusing you of being right wing is because they know it will upset you. If they actually thought you were right wing, they wouldn’t bother accusing you of it.

Walk away. Life's too short to associate with stupid people.

At this stage I think I'd say something along the lines of

'if supporting women fighting against men's rights activists makes me right wing - you've got to ask yourself what has happened to the left'

You think that's difficult, huh! try explaining that one is also a 'one nation conservative' as well as a feminist and gender critical.

1. Right wing is incorrectly thought of as evil. far-right and far-left are the ones you need to worry about. but it's going to be hard to explain this one because it's so deeply entrenched.
2. More effective might be to send them links from the left-wing newspapers, MPs, etc that are GC. There are more and more now. Point out JKR is left-wing and what a wonderful charity giving person she is.
3. Keep going and don't give up.

I feel your struggle too. I've won the argument from sheer logic but I haven't won the belief. Brainwashing is real.

You can't from the ones you love.

No you can’t explain that you’re not right wing/far right/nazi whatever to these people, because they generally form their opinion based on the inane ramblings of TikTok/twitterx users, and aren’t able to think for themselves.