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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Good Law Practice launch a EHCR/Supreme Court challenge over toilets

770 replies

fromorbit · 07/06/2025 07:38

After raising over 418K it turns out the GLP's amazing legal case is all about toilets. Details:

https://archive.is/TWRTl

No doubt it will fail like most of their previous legal cases.

Previous thread:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5336208-good-law-project-suing-the-ehrc-and-bridget-phillipson-letter-before-action?page=1

Good Law Project suing the EHRC and Bridget Phillipson - letter before action | Mumsnet

Sorry if this has already been shared - here are the links to their letter and statement. Looking forward to the Mumsnet analysis :-) [[https://good...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5336208-good-law-project-suing-the-ehrc-and-bridget-phillipson-letter-before-action?page=1

OP posts:
Thread gallery
50
Bluemin · 13/11/2025 20:13

MyAmpleSheep · 13/11/2025 18:25

Where did you find today's submissions?

Im not actually sure i think it was from a link on this thread? Sorry I just opened it in a separate tab on my phone.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 13/11/2025 20:14

GreenUp · 13/11/2025 18:31

I don't know if anybody has posted already but Maya has tweeted a link to a full transcript of yesterday's submissions. It looks like it was done by a professional stenographer as it is very detailed.

https://x.com/MForstater/status/1988929135104913745?s=20

https://nitter.net/MForstater/status/1988929135104913745#m

That is a really gripping read! Tribunal Tweets are fantastic but you really can't beat a proper transcript...

MyrtleLion · 13/11/2025 20:21

Bluemin · 13/11/2025 20:13

Im not actually sure i think it was from a link on this thread? Sorry I just opened it in a separate tab on my phone.

You may have opened Tribunal Tweets' reporting of yesterday's submissions.

TT still haven't posted today's reporting.

I'll monitor it till about 10pm. If someone else spots it, please @ me.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/11/2025 20:21

Yes, ItsAll, hopefully it will be available for today, as the EHRC, W&E and SM arguments were being made.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 13/11/2025 20:27

Not TT but Ashleeees notes are up:

https://skywriter.blue/pages/did:plc:5kydynj3pme74rk5ynru3m6d/post/3m5j52q77i22c

Harassedevictee · 13/11/2025 20:43

GreenUp · 13/11/2025 18:31

I don't know if anybody has posted already but Maya has tweeted a link to a full transcript of yesterday's submissions. It looks like it was done by a professional stenographer as it is very detailed.

https://x.com/MForstater/status/1988929135104913745?s=20

https://nitter.net/MForstater/status/1988929135104913745#m

I think SM and others have realised paying for a full transcript maybe £££ but worth every penny. The fact the second part of SP vs NHSF had transcripts helped both parties if you recall JR asked for a copy,

LikeAHandleInTheWind · 13/11/2025 20:54

GLP team have Crash Wigley on board, veteran of trans Welsh Eisteddfod. They can't lose!

(for any Red Dwarf fans - Crash Wigley will be forever said in the tones of Cat turning into Dwayne Dibley)

Bluemin · 13/11/2025 20:55

MyrtleLion · 13/11/2025 20:21

You may have opened Tribunal Tweets' reporting of yesterday's submissions.

TT still haven't posted today's reporting.

I'll monitor it till about 10pm. If someone else spots it, please @ me.

Oh yes I think that was it. Sorry getting confused following this and Sarah's tribunal as well!

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 13/11/2025 20:59

IANAL but to me it looks like the GLPs case is rather weak and unlikely to succeed?

ArabellaScott · 13/11/2025 21:03

'you have a
service that is lawfully restricted to a SS, and it is making the fantas4cally simple point that if
you permit persons of the opposite sex to use that facility it becomes a mixed sex facility'

Paging Forestry Commission: Ursine Division

MelOfTheRoses · 13/11/2025 21:03

Having read the Sex Matters witness statements today, following on from the GLP anonymous statements gleaned from the transcript of yesterday, the GLP does not look very professional. 🤔

MyrtleLion · 13/11/2025 21:03

Sex Matters have posted their witness statements on their website here:
https://sex-matters.org/posts/category/publications/legal-submissions/

Application to intervene in R (GLP) v EHRC
https://sex-matters.org/posts/publications/application-to-intervene-in-r-glp-v-ehrc/

Witness statement of Maya Forstater in R (GLP and others) v EHRC
https://sex-matters.org/posts/publications/witness-statement-of-maya-forstater-in-r-glp-and-others-v-ehrc/

Witness statement of Elaine Miller in R (GLP and others) v EHRC
https://sex-matters.org/posts/publications/witness-statement-of-elaine-miller-in-r-glp-and-others-v-ehrc/

Witness statement of Michelle Shipworth in R (GLP and others) v EHRC
https://sex-matters.org/posts/publications/witness-statement-of-michelle-shipworth-in-r-glp-and-others-v-ehrc/

Sex Matters’ summary of submissions in R (GLP and others) v EHRC
https://sex-matters.org/posts/publications/sex-matters-summary-of-submissions-in-r-glp-and-others-v-ehrc/

ArabellaScott · 13/11/2025 21:14

Is the EHRC KC calling the GRA 'bad law that cannot be relied on'?

He says the SC judgement rules that one 'definitely' cant change sex.

MyrtleLion · 13/11/2025 21:16

Just reading Michelle Shipworth's opening paragraphs:

Personal experience of the risk posed by men in women’s toilets.

  1. In my early 20s I was seriously attacked by a man in a female toilet; he served several years in prison for this attack, in addition to his convictions for murdering multiple women. This experience had a profound impact on me then and has continued to do so; for example a few years ago I had private therapy for PTSD.
  1. The circumstances of the attack were as follows. I was using the toilet facilities in a
women’s only block of toilets in a central Melbourne shopping arcade. This was a traditional single sex block, with a row of cubicles, facing a row of washbasins. After using the toilet I went to wash my hands at the wash basins. As I was doing so, a man who was inside one of the cubicles opened the cubicle door, put his head out and asked if this was the women’s toilets. I answered “yes”. He then went back into the cubicle.
  1. Prior to his inquiry, I had not noticed the man. However, at this point, I was untroubled by his presence in the female toilet, believing he was vulnerable or confused and required inclusion in the female toilet. I turned back to the washbasin, and having washed my hands, I bent down to drink from the tap. At that moment, the man shot me with a crossbow which penetrated my back. As I stood up he came next to me, put a knife to my throat, ordered me into a cubicle and told me to remove my trousers. I chatted with him and convinced him that a friend would be using the toilet shortly. He was subsequently convicted of causing me grievous bodily harm.
  1. As a result of the assault, I was left with a lifelong anxiety at the prospect of
encountering a male in a toilet. As a naive young woman, I had not appreciated the risk and as such it had not occurred to me that I needed to challenge a man in the women’s toilets. However from that point on I realised that some men are dangerous, and importantly, that it is impossible to tell in advance which ones pose a risk. This is one very important reason why women need female-only toilets and changing rooms, namely because if a man enters, it is impossible to know whether he means harm or whether he just wants to use the facilities. While incidents are possible even in single- sex facilities (as my experience shows), increasing the ease with which men are able to access such facilities only increases that risk. Mixed-sex toilet spaces (including ‘trans inclusive’ spaces) make me very uncomfortable and fearful, for myself and especially for younger women and girls.
ArabellaScott · 13/11/2025 21:32

The GLP are sleekit fuckers. Their closing argument seemed to attempt to say the Guidance could just go contrary to the law and claim Twaw.

Wasn't happy with the WESC submission, either. Got a distinct feeling of 'oh, just let the TW in and let's not make a big fuss'.

Good to read Sex Matters' clear statements.

And sadly Hines' contribution was very short and amounted to 'lots of women dont care'.

NotAtMyAge · 13/11/2025 21:39

LikeAHandleInTheWind · 13/11/2025 20:54

GLP team have Crash Wigley on board, veteran of trans Welsh Eisteddfod. They can't lose!

(for any Red Dwarf fans - Crash Wigley will be forever said in the tones of Cat turning into Dwayne Dibley)

Gosh, that name takes me back. I used to know his mother quite well, years before he and his twin brother were born.

OhBuggerandArse · 13/11/2025 21:41

ChatGPT's analysis of today's submissions is a bit depressing (I don't trust its judgement, obviously, but it is usually useful in setting out key themes, etc):

Below is a balanced, court-facing assessment of the strengths and weaknesses of the arguments you’ve summarised, followed by a reasoned, provisional prediction of how Swift J is likely to decide. I’m drawing on the transcript evidence you provided plus the structure of judicial review, Gillick illegality, Schedule 3, and the post-FWS landscape.
1. STRENGTHS & WEAKNESSES OF THE ARGUMENTS
A. EHRC / Tom Cross KC – Strengths
1. Clear reliance on For Women Scotland (FWS)

  • TC’s strongest point is that FWS gives the Supreme Court’s authoritative meaning of “sex” and demonstrates the conceptual problems of allowing GRC-sex to define access to SS facilities.
  • Swift J repeatedly signalled that he thinks FWS is highly relevant to this guidance and that “sex” in contexts involving privacy/dignity is biological sex.
  • This anchors TC’s argument that a “single-sex” toilet must exclude all of the opposite biological sex.
2. Solid statutory ground under the 1992 Workplace Regulations
  • The argument that the 1992 Regs require SS toilets by biological sex is well-constructed:
  • multiple provisions assume male/female bodily differences
  • Schedule 1 uses “men/women” numerically
  • consistency principle in statutory interpretation
  • The judge probed very hard here—but largely in a way that tested the point rather than undermined it.
3. Gillick test — narrow and high threshold
  • TC repeatedly emphasised that to succeed, the Claimants must show the EHRC authorised or approved unlawfulconduct, not simply that the guidance was unclear or incomplete.
  • That is a significant hurdle. Courts are reluctant to strike down guidance unless it expressly tells readers to break the law.
B. EHRC / TC – Weaknesses 1. The “if you admit one TW, you must admit all men” chain argument
  • This is the weakest part of the EHRC case.
  • Swift J clearly found it counter-intuitive, under-justified, and possibly wrong in law.
  • The judge pressed TC repeatedly:
  • Why does allowing one trans woman mean the service becomes mixed-sex for all men?
  • TC’s explanation (direct discrimination + s.29) felt strained and the judge was not persuaded.
2. Guidance may indeed fail the “objective reader” test
  • The judge kept returning to the question:
  • Would an ordinary reader know the legal position after reading this? Or would it mislead?
  • TC struggled when asked whether the EHRC’s phrasing (“in some circumstances”, “may”, “should”) lacked legal precision.
3. Tension between EHRC’s equality focus and its failure to integrate other laws
  • The judge strongly criticised the EHRC for not addressing the Workplace Regulations or other statutory duties in its guidance.
  • Swift J clearly thinks guidance must reflect the whole legal landscape; TC’s fallback (“EHRC only focuses on equality law”) did not satisfy him.
C. Minister / Gannon – Strengths 1. Challenges the “less favourable treatment” premise
  • ZG’s best argument is that even if a TW is excluded from the women’s toilet, it may not be “less favourable treatment” because:
  • a comparable service is provided next door;
  • circumstances differ materially.
  • Swift J explicitly indicated sympathy with this line: it fits orthodox discrimination analysis.
2. emphasises fact-sensitivity of discrimination
  • This resonated strongly with the judge.
  • Helps undermine the EHRC’s absolute “if you include one TW, you must include all men” claim.
D. Minister / Gannon – Weaknesses 1. Struggles to articulate what a “trans-inclusive single-sex toilet” is
  • Every time she gestured at this, Swift J pushed her back with FWS and Schedule 3.
  • This undermined the government’s attempt to carve out room for a hybrid category.
2. Indirect discrimination arguments were speculative
  • Raising theoretical indirect discrimination against women (e.g., religious objections) didn’t appear to land with the judge.
E. Claimants / DS & AG – Strengths 1. Gillick framing – the guidance does imply unlawfulness
  • Their best line is:
  • The EHRC guidance affirmatively states certain arrangements are unlawful, when the law is more nuanced and fact-sensitive.
  • They argue the EHRC misstates Schedule 3 by assuming PMOALA always applies.
2. Very strong attack on the language of the bullet points
  • The judge clearly agreed that the bullets, read together, present a crude and categorical rule, not the nuanced analysis the statute requires.
3. Good statutory construction point about the 1992 Regs
  • They convincingly argued Regs govern provision, not management.
  • This allows them to maintain that trans-inclusive arrangements can be lawful without breaching the Regs.
F. Claimants / DS & AG – Weaknesses 1. Difficulty with comparator analysis post-FWS
  • DS’s suggestion that the comparator for a TW may be a cis woman (even after FWS) meets obvious doctrinal resistance.
  • Swift J repeatedly pushed back and suggested this might contradict FWS.
2. Standing arguments were accepted but not warmly
  • The judge didn’t seem fully convinced but let it through. This is fine but does not strengthen Ground 1.
3. Their reading of the Workplace Regulations is less textually grounded
  • The court may consider that they downplayed the regulatory duties too far.
2. LIKELY OUTCOME – REASONED PREDICTION Based on Swift J’s interventions, his known interpretive style, and the transcript: GROUND 1 – Gillick illegality LIKELY RESULT: Claimants succeed in part Specifically:
  • The judge is likely to find that some of the bullet points misled readers into thinking certain trans-inclusive arrangements are unlawful per se when they are not.
  • The “if you admit one TW you must admit all men” point looks especially vulnerable; this is the part he pressed hardest.
  • He may hold that the guidance gave the appearance of legal compulsion where none exists → classic Gillick unlawfulness.
However:
  • He will not find that the EHRC authorised or encouraged employers to breach the Workplace Regulations.
  • He is likely to treat it as a misstatement / oversimplification, not an instruction to break the law.
Thus: a partial quashing or declaration, not total victory. GROUND 2 – Statutory duty / purpose of the EHRC LIKELY RESULT: EHRC WINS
  • The judge did not seem persuaded that the EHRC acted outside its statutory remit.
  • The threshold is high; claimants probably fall short.
GROUND 3 – Procedural unfairness / inadequate consultation LIKELY RESULT: EHRC WINS
  • Very limited discussion; unlikely to succeed.
3. OVERALL PREDICTION Predicted Judgment (short form) Some parts of the April and June bullet-point guidance will be declared unlawful and quashed for misrepresenting the law (Ground 1). The rest of the challenge will be dismissed. The court will likely emphasise clarity requirements for statutory guidance but avoid ruling on the broader sex-definition issues beyond what FWS already settles. If you want, I can also prepare:
  • A one-page “likely judgment” summary suitable for briefing,
  • A matrix of which bullet points are most vulnerable,
  • A prediction of how each judge on appeal might treat the issue, or
  • A neutral, case-note-style write-up for colleagues.
OpheliaWitchoftheWoods · 13/11/2025 21:46

But again this completely sidesteps that the SC went in depth into HOW you make a rule for some men and not others, and the primary fact that this not all and only about men.

You cannot provide an accessible single sex service or provision for women AND let any man use it. The two things are incompatible. What do we do with the women excluded?

Bearing in mind the tragic stories of men now upset and having nowhere to pee in court with this supposedly the reason that justice must do something?

littlbrowndog · 13/11/2025 21:49

MyrtleLion · 13/11/2025 21:16

Just reading Michelle Shipworth's opening paragraphs:

Personal experience of the risk posed by men in women’s toilets.

  1. In my early 20s I was seriously attacked by a man in a female toilet; he served several years in prison for this attack, in addition to his convictions for murdering multiple women. This experience had a profound impact on me then and has continued to do so; for example a few years ago I had private therapy for PTSD.
  1. The circumstances of the attack were as follows. I was using the toilet facilities in a
women’s only block of toilets in a central Melbourne shopping arcade. This was a traditional single sex block, with a row of cubicles, facing a row of washbasins. After using the toilet I went to wash my hands at the wash basins. As I was doing so, a man who was inside one of the cubicles opened the cubicle door, put his head out and asked if this was the women’s toilets. I answered “yes”. He then went back into the cubicle.
  1. Prior to his inquiry, I had not noticed the man. However, at this point, I was untroubled by his presence in the female toilet, believing he was vulnerable or confused and required inclusion in the female toilet. I turned back to the washbasin, and having washed my hands, I bent down to drink from the tap. At that moment, the man shot me with a crossbow which penetrated my back. As I stood up he came next to me, put a knife to my throat, ordered me into a cubicle and told me to remove my trousers. I chatted with him and convinced him that a friend would be using the toilet shortly. He was subsequently convicted of causing me grievous bodily harm.
  1. As a result of the assault, I was left with a lifelong anxiety at the prospect of
encountering a male in a toilet. As a naive young woman, I had not appreciated the risk and as such it had not occurred to me that I needed to challenge a man in the women’s toilets. However from that point on I realised that some men are dangerous, and importantly, that it is impossible to tell in advance which ones pose a risk. This is one very important reason why women need female-only toilets and changing rooms, namely because if a man enters, it is impossible to know whether he means harm or whether he just wants to use the facilities. While incidents are possible even in single- sex facilities (as my experience shows), increasing the ease with which men are able to access such facilities only increases that risk. Mixed-sex toilet spaces (including ‘trans inclusive’ spaces) make me very uncomfortable and fearful, for myself and especially for younger women and girls.

Oh heck myrtle so sorry. What a dreadful thing that a man did to you

Signalbox · 13/11/2025 21:52

Is it just me or does the judge not seem convinced by the idea that a service provider cannot lawfully provide a service for women and those men who say they are women whilst excluding all other men?

GnomeComforts · 13/11/2025 21:57

COULD WE PLEASE STOP POSTING THE TEDIOUSLY LONG, TOTALLY POINTLESS AI "ANALYSES"!!!

Thank you.

ArabellaScott · 13/11/2025 22:07

OpheliaWitchoftheWoods · 13/11/2025 21:46

But again this completely sidesteps that the SC went in depth into HOW you make a rule for some men and not others, and the primary fact that this not all and only about men.

You cannot provide an accessible single sex service or provision for women AND let any man use it. The two things are incompatible. What do we do with the women excluded?

Bearing in mind the tragic stories of men now upset and having nowhere to pee in court with this supposedly the reason that justice must do something?

The judge seemed unclear on the comparator point - unless it was just GLP pushing it hard that a comparator for a TW is a woman.