Perfectly summarises the truth of 'non-binary' women and girls, in that last little paragraph.

[colourmystic]

That last bit - that such women / girls just feel, deep down and subconsciously, that there's something deeply vulnerable and undeserving in simply being female. I think that’s the essence of it.

I agree
its like they never heard of or really understood feminism

or as we say round here 'its as if devil woman had never been written'

(I know that doesn't make a lot of sense, Rik said it in the Young Ones and it captures my sense of frustration ....I'll have to change my username now)

I'll have to find that line, Mayall was a genius. It really captures the non-binary core, doesn't it? All they're really saying is that they don't want to be female.
If identifying as nonbinary - all in air quotes - saved girls from trafficking or rape it'd mean something. It doesn't save them.

"I don't want to be seen as a woman because I'm whatever ... "
Changing your pronouns and making demands on peoples language, changing your hairstyle doesn't change the fact people have eyes and ears.
People know if you're a woman or not within about four seconds.

As soon as these "non binary" people start a family I hope they actually grow up because it's just not fashionable anymore .

I always felt it was just a replacement for an actual personality, but I see it differently now. It's that subconsciously, not even some women want to be women. And again it just reinforces 50's sex-based stereotypes - if you don't like pink, dresses and homemaking, you're not actually female 😒

I equate enbies with empaths Full of shite and really fucking annoying

Anything I've read by any genderist, however amiable they are, however intelligent and interesting they are when talking about something other than their own identity, whatever their birth sex was, whether they personally have a trans identity or not, eventually boiled down to 'I despise women'.

Its all of that and replacement personality as well. There is power in being different and special, so additional to (apparently) losing your vulnerability because you're not female, you are now also particularly powerful moreso than the average bog standard person. You have an 'identity', with a name to it.

It really riles me as I’m very gender “non-binary” myself. I have a sex, and I reject the gender stereotyping for that sex and have done since childhood when I was a tomboy. I see “gendered” stuff as a selection of stuff I can do if I want to and so I have a range of interest, tastes, hobbies and skills that are stereotypically associated with one sex or the other. And lots that are neutral.

But so do loads of people. As the link says, it’s so insulting the way anyone who announces “I’m non-binary” is implying that other people are mindless stereotype-followers. Most people aren’t, to varying degrees. Its demonstrable bollocks. You have a sex that is M or F and can’t change. Then you have a free choice of gender expression just like everyone. And in most people that is complex and far from a simple binary choice.

Being expected to take people like this seriously and not argue with them about how bloody rude they are is one of the most annoying aspects of my working life as I work in the arts. I want to say “so I’m “binary’ am I? How does that work exactly?”

Well it's out of fashion now but I'm sure those who carve out enbie status will cling on to be different and special.

I feel non binary myself in that I don't feel female. I am female. I didn't get pink hair or change my name to celebrate this.

I saw a very astute comment in an article years ago about really it being willing to shove all other women into a restrictive, stereotypical box so that a person could identify themselves as being outside of that box and something special and different and more liberated than they are. It is self absorbed and self aggrandising nonsense, and insulting to boot.

Yes, women like us would almost certainly have been corralled into transitioning if we'd been born in this time. I do ALL the 'man' stuff because it's fun and because no-one else is gonna build me any furniture.
There was a great read years ago on the 'erasure of the tomboy', I'll track it down if you're interested. Think of George from the Famous Five, or whatever Enid Blyton series it was. Definitely 'actually a boy' today.
The retro-transing of real, very cool women in history also drives me insane.

Yes, it's just 'not like the other girls' on steroids.

I've a lot of sympathy for women who say they are nonbinary and want to escape stereotyping. I suspect my use of 'Ms' - often a huge source of irritation for some people throughout my life - has a similar impetus.

I don't know if its so much about how they see themselves as how they are asking people to treat them. They don't want to be defined by stereotypes.

I do understand the frustration with the implication that 'other women' are choosing to conform. But I don't think that it's done with that motivation. I think it's done in a genuine attempt to step out of a hugely stereotyped and often very sexualised society.

I realise that I've made a huge sweeping statement! I expect there are a variety of reasons and motivations for calling yourself nonbinary.

This Reverand identifies as NB apparently, and seems to be causing chaos in their parish:

Note the rainbow coloured 'Believe'

https://www.thetimes.com/uk/religion/article/st-oswalds-church-malpas-cheshire-8lbtw2hp0

Love your Rik reference! Perfect

@ArabellaScott
But claiming to be non-binary isn't the same as using Ms. Using Ms indicates a state of reality; 'I am a woman who doesn't want to reveal her married status'. It doesn't make any reference to whether you believe in the value of marriage or not and you're not compelling all other women to refer to themselves as Ms. There is no Ms flag or day(s) of remembrance/visibility/celebration etc.

Claiming to be non-binary is denying the reality of binary sex, indicating that you buy into gender woo, and, compelling others to support your belief through use of pronouns, because what's the point of being non-binary if you don't tell everyone about it!

I do agree many women who identify as either NB or as TM are trying to escape from the stereotyping and sexualisation of women, and I am sympathetic about that - but it is frustrating when lots of women have been gender-nonconforming for centuries, we've had tomboys and butch lesbians for decades, and these people haven't noticed you can actually be a woman without having to adhere to stereotypes? I suppose the way trans and NB are celebrated and rewarded, and it gives you an instant in-crowd is also part of the appeal.

Though there are some, especially celebs and performers, who don't seem that bothered about escaping stereotypes. e.g. that Eurovision NB daftie Bambie Thug, essentially a lot of barely-dressed cavorting around for the male gaze dressed up as something anarchic and different.

There are also a lot of younger "NB" women who seem as feminine-gender-stereotyped as your average woman or more so. Certainly more so than me.

(I've sometimes wondered about "coming out as NB" myself - in my industry it would help my career as I could apply for endless grants and awards for the "LGBTQ+" and the "under-represented". I look the part too and could easily ham it up a bit more. But I wouldn't be able to keep a straight face or deal with the nonsense.)

A nuanced interpretation, your closing statements. Clever.
I've taught all my students (currently 300 odd) the following: 'Mrs, means that woman is married; Miss, that she is NOT married; Ms, means that, like men have Mr, whether that woman is married or not, is no-one's darn business'.
These are kids aged 4 to 12, and most of them now take some pride in carefully using 'Ms' for me correctly. I don't actually care personally if they get it right or wrong, but it's part of the quietly subversive feminism I bring to every class. Only one of all those students already knew what it meant and I can really see them thinking, when I point out that 'We don't know if Mr. Potts is married or not, do we? So why would we need to know if a woman is married or not? We don't define women on their relationship to a man'.

Rik out of the Young Ones would definitely have announced he was NB, though NB males are often a very different kettle of fish.

I agree "Ms" isn't about gender, just about being a woman and wanting the same privacy and non-marriage-related title that men get. I've been a Ms since the age of 16 – I think it's perfect as it doesn't deny I'm a woman but it does indicate that I think I'm due the same respect and being taken seriously as men.

I've sometimes wondered about "coming out as NB" myself - in my industry it would help my career as I could apply for endless grants and awards for the "LGBTQ+" and the "under-represented". I look the part too and could easily ham it up a bit more. But I wouldn't be able to keep a straight face or deal with the nonsense.)

I heard something recently on the radio where young people were being advised to put an alphabet identity on job application forms as it would improve their employability as the employers could tick the DEI box. Although I think this could also be a double edged sword as I have also heard that many employers will bin any such applications as the applicants have a reputation for, let say, being difficult to work with.

I often say this on here and sound an old fogey, but when I was growing up and first listening to music, there were very strong, non 'feminine' women who were women, proud to be women

Annie Lennox
Polystyrene
The Belle Stars
the woman out of Bow Wow Wow
Pattie Smith
Joan Jett
Joan Armatrading
Grace Jones

the list is endless, not sexualised pretty pink, frilly lightweights, proper serious confident, strong women who were women

But you probably encountered strong resistance when using 'Ms'? I know I did.

In most situations, we could probably ask the same question - why do we need to know what sex a person is?

It matters in some instances - all the things we've been battling on over single sex exemptions - but does it matter for day to day interactions? Do we need to know the sex of an author, a postie, a shopkeeper, etc?

Maybe we do, I'm not sure. But I can imagine some of the rationale for a 'non binary' identity can be women just saying 'it's none of your business what sex I am', or 'sex shouldn't matter'.

I encounterd some resistance in the 80s using Ms

But then of course we had Ms magazine and that made it quite mainstream

I wonder what the Young Ones de nos jours would be like....