Transpeople have the right to express themselves in whatever way they want but

[Berlinwanderer]

How come we don’t have the right to freedom of thought ? I commented on a ParkrunUK subreddit that I respect the right of a person to identify however they want, I’ll treat them respectfully, I’ll even defend their right to adopt whatever gender stereotypical appearance they want, but I have the right to believe a person cannot change sex. Told I was transphobic, didn’t understand science, and wanted to eradicate them from society. How come freedom of expression and thought is fine if it’s of one persuasion, but not of another ? One trans woman said she could look at porn anywhere, it was freely available, ‘didn’t need to look at women’s tits’ in a changing room. I might be prudish but that really is a bit icky, shoehorning porn into a discussion about women’s safety.
Anyway, I’ve complained to the moderators, let’s see where that gets me 😂

That’s grim. Textbook though.

Parkrun are renowned for supporting trans women competing in the women's category so I'm not sure you will get a positive response

This is reminding me of the transwoman who tried to access porn en route to a government consultation about self ID, was blocked by the train operator's wifi, and then complained about it. Publically.

Only a man would do that!! Never heard of a woman complaining they cannot access porn in a public place.

You probably won't but good to ask the question.... at the moment both belief systems (gc and trans) are worthy of respect in a democratic society... they cannot legally call you transphobic. You might like to remind them of them and quote Forstater case - Maya you hero!!

The sooner Parkrun change their philosophy the better

They're also getting quite a lot of push back from serious runners who want their time and places logged each time

This is the crux of the matter, really.

We accept the right of other people to believe it's possible to change sex, but we don't believe it ourselves.

They, on the other hand, want, not only the right to believe people can change sex, but to compel others to believe it - or compel others to pretend to believe it, which comes to the same thing.

So there is no equality between the two positions.

Very much seems to be about the need for affirmation from EVERYONE, and nobody is allowed to refuse

As per the festival one a couple of days ago - comms to reassure everyone that there will be plenty of mixed sex toilet (changing/shower?) provision and also some single-sex in line with SC ruling. Cue lots of backlash because trans people won’t be able to use the single-sex provision (or because they wont be able to use unconsenting people as affirming resources?) 🙄

That one was head of a women’s domestic violence service.

How come freedom of expression and thought is fine if it’s of one persuasion, but not of another ?

It's not. Look how detransitioners, or transpeople who acknowledge sex, get treated by TRAs. There's no freedom of expression permitted, only allegiance to a dogma.

Actually I don't think gender identity theory has ever been confirmed in court as being WORIADS.

This is him:
https://www.mylondon.news/news/zone-1-news/passenger-complained-great-western-railway-16330620

Ironically it was to a meeting (I think) about VAWG and they were representing a women's group? Refuge? or similar.
Because every women's organisation needs to be represented by a man unable to contain their desperation to browse an online sex shop while on the way to a meeting in the House of Commons 😑

You're right, it's not been tested in court as to whether it is a protected belief but I think that (the Grainger test) goes further than just WORIADS. I think gender identity theory would pass the WORIADS limb of the test but might get stuck on the cogency limb if scrutinised beyond a superficial glimpse.

People have the right to dress however they like, and I (and everyone else) have the right to judge people on the way they dress and present themselves to the world, and I wouldn’t have it any other way.

Why would you judge people for dressing? Are non normative clothes (trying not use use the word gender!) problematic ?

Actually I understand where you are coming from gender roles are very strongly enforced.

But.

Why would I? Because I do, I may not make the judgement the person is intending, but they way you present yourself to the world gives off signals and it would be silly
to pretend it doesn’t, or that the way you dress doesn’t matter. Most people would agree getting a tattoo on your face isn’t the best move if you want to work in a customer service job, if you get on the tube dressed like a tramp I’ll probably think totes homeless, and if I see a man walking down the street in a dress I’ll assume he wants a reaction or is a bit odd.

Oh god. You couldn’t make this crap up, could you? And they couldn’t find a single suitable female applicant to head a women’s DV service? Obviously DV survivors’ needs came low down the priority list.

Well, Parkrun’s response to the women objecting to men’s times being recorded as women’s times was to say that Parkrun doesn’t identify as a race, so I doubt they will care if another woman is put off by their male-centric policies.

They really don’t give a shit about the fact that men can still reliably measure their times against the average for their age and sex category, just as they always could, whereas women can’t, as their category includes males. This obviously distorts the average times and makes them far less achievable for the category of women they claim to represent, which demoralises those women who are trying their best to keep up with the average for their age group while that average grows frustratingly closer to the male average with each new transwomen who registers in that women’s age category.

Anyone who points out that this is a serious issue for women and girls in grassroots sport will just be told by Parkrun and its supporters to lighten up, as Parkrun is “just for fun”. And as long as the men are having fun, that’s all that matters - if the women are upset, it’s their own fault for taking it all too seriously.

It's a conversation that runs:

GI : 'we are all different, some of us have different needs, we are all worthy of respect and equality in however we express ourselves in a progressive world, and I want my needs to be catered for'.

Women, homosexual people etc: 'Great, completely agree. I'd like mine catered for too though, because I have needs too and they're also different to yours, so we're going to need single sex and mixed sex for us to have that equality, because we're both worthy of respect. Ending this provision works for you, but not me.'

GI: 'No, we have to do what I want and you mustn't challenge my beliefs because then I feel like I don't exist, so that means you can't have what you need, at all, and if you were a good person you wouldn't want to do anything except please and care for me. Your needs don't matter, and when I said respect and equality I wasn't talking about you. And I'll take you to court and get you a police record if you resist or say anything about this, and make sure everybody hates you! Plus <disturbed sexual violence threats>'

Women et al: 'er so what you want is an abusive relationship, and the answer is fuck no. The law actually says this <proves it>'

GI: 'Law is hate! The law is wrong! Only evil people want rights, privacy and dignity themselves that gets in the way of me doing what I want!'

It's not a rational conversation. Other people's existential crises are not a reason to deprive others of equality and freedom.

It's about inappropriate for the setting. There is a senior trans civil servant who was criticised for wearing highly revealing clothing to work, but I guess it would be fine at a sex club.

Exactly.

Until transactivists accept that gender identity ideology is a belief and not a fact, there’s no sensible conversation to be had.

It's a bit double standards though because women can wear what they want - trousers, suits, ties etc but men can't dress as they want 🤷

Men can dress as they want, but if what they want to wear is a pencil skirt then I have the right to think they’re a bit odd.

Its a bit of a false equivalency because most women don’t really wear men’s clothes, they wear women’s clothes that are a similar style to men’s clothes, because those styles are more comfortable and practical. If a woman wore a men’s three piece suit and tie it wouldn’t fit well and would look a bit odd, the same as if a woman turned up to her wedding in a men’s dinner jacket and top hat, it wouldn’t fit properly and would be considered strange.

The brain having a 'sex' is a reasonable starting point for modelling behaviour of people given the observational clues. So gender identity is not a totally silly idea. Could disorders in the development of this brain feature cause dysphoria, probably. The biological evidence is thin because we know so little about the brain. So I'm not willing to deny the existence of trans people. I'm also not willing to damage women's hard earned sex based rights. For me that is the BUT in the op's question.

classic ideology innit.

Because woman’s bodies are entirely different