So, which side is catholic, and which side protestant ?

[SerendipityJane]

Just browsing a couple of podcasts about the reformation, and I was suddenly struck by the parallels in language and commitment to a world view between the early reformation (crispy catholics etc) and the current spat with TRAs and science.

To the extent that either I am alone in my own little universe (which I am quite happy with, thank you) or someone else must have noticed.

Anyway it does provide for a brief distraction if you want to not only examine the parallels, but suggests which side equates to which.

I guess someone, somewhere is working on a PhD around the western christian manifestation of the current transgender discussions. If not they have have that one on me 😎

The Reformation probably would have happened. For example, the Lollards were preaching in England in the fourteenth century and Wycliffe translated the Vulgate Bible into English before 1400. This had some currency, mainly among the aristocracy - Wycliffe's patron was John of Gaunt, who was also the patron of the poet Gower a popular poet. There was an upsurge of rebellion following the Black Death, which had removed large swathes of the population and caused economic upheaval. I think the printing press speeded matters up a bit - but translation of the scriptures into vernacular languages had been going on for a while (Alfred the Great had the Gospels translated in English so that people could understand them, for example, and he set up schools to teach boys to read and write) and there had been various breakaway movements. The idea that most people were illiterate and that all books were expensive and precious is not entirely true. Scriveners in England, for example, would produce chap books for ordinary people to read - these were mass produced with each scrivener in a workshop making copies of a particular page, then all the pages were bound together - scriveners were taught a neat, clear hand so the pages would not have looked very different because done by different men. Had there not been a literate population to buy the books - mainly in towns - there would have been no mass production (though of course supply and demand do a mutual dance).

The main reform idea that came from the printing press was through access to bibles in English (or German). So people could read it for themselves.

The Anglican Church (including Church of England) mimics the Catholic structure in many ways and was probably equally corrupt to RCC apart from its earthly head was someone for whom self-interest was a given rather than corruption (The Monarch). But the Church of Scotland is Presbyterian - run by elected members of congregations - so I wonder if that meant it was much less corrupt? Or just corrupted in different ways? It is probably a toss-up whether the Anglican Church or Presbyterian church is most spiritually corrupt these days.

I used to be married to one of those.

We probably know a bunch of the same people then.

Poor Lionel thinks that Covid was just a fad and climate change a hoax. But then she called the Irish ' a scummy potato residue' who are trying to stop Brexit from being a wonderful success. I'd resent that more , as an Irish person , if she wasn't such a loolah in general.

Covid clearly wasn’t a fad, but there were certainly beliefs around it and a lot of actions taken that were divorced from the evidence and had much more political motivation behind it than public health concerns.

Yes exactly @Dwimmer . The examples she cites start off from reasonable ideas but developed into 'manias', with the position and demands are at the extreme end, and severe penalties for dissenters.
Mad ideas are very normal and human, so its interesting to think about what has changed with the checks and balances that up until recently seemed to keep most of them in check, and why so many have accelerated into the mainstream rather than remaining on the fringes.
And (just about returning to the thread topic!) what historical parallels may help us understand whats going on?

Absolutely when it came to covid utter madness.

Lunch before 6pm was safe but Dinner wasn't.
The University pool was safe but school pools weren't.
It's safe to be in a restaurant with three dozen random folk but only 6 folk at your table.
Meanwhile it's not safe for 2 folk to meet in one living room .

Even worse people tried to defend the nonsense!!!

Or making children wear ‘face coverings’ in school despite evidence of increased cross infection, and all the harms to their learning, because it might increase compliance in the community.

Or sitting drinking coffee and chatting for an hour in a cafe but it being vitally important that you wore your face covering for the ten seconds it took to take the six steps to the door.

Or Nicola Sturgeon making party political broadcasts every day in the year running up to the last Scottish Elections without any chance for other parties to reply.

Bob Jones wasn't referring to the Medici popes.

I have not RTFT but, as I don’t fully understand it; I believe, it would be an ecumenical matter.

😂😂😂

(RIP laugh reaction 😢)

PS extra kudos for using the endangered semicolon.

No different to the black death or any other past plague then.

Very different to the bubonic plague that killed half the population of Europe.

What is ?

You said Covid was no different to bubonic plague?

Doesn't OP mean no different in the sense that it led to some mad human beliefs and actions?

It did. And some perfectly sensible ones , like quarantine and cremation instead of burial. I think we all suffer from Presentism to some extent. For example the belief that Britain was a dystopian crap hole in the 70s. Although most people could afford to rent or buy a flat. Maybe its the ghastly fashions. Less understandable is ppl who supported the lockdowns now sneering about it . Oh those silly dupes in 2020! Let it rip. I have a friend who is just recovering from Long Covid. Got it pre vaccine in March 20. He thinks it was deliberately unleashed by big pharma to inflict their dangerous vaccine on us all. But then he has spent 4 years watching loopers on YouTube. Sorry Mr Gove I will still defer to experts.

I feel that what we are going through is very similar to the reformation.

No I didn't.

I was addressing the point that the public reaction was the same; in that there was a fringe element who believed all kinds of things about the nature of COVID.

That said, there is a case to be made that the black death and COVID did share some points of interest, so comparisons aren't facile.