So, which side is catholic, and which side protestant ?

[SerendipityJane]

Just browsing a couple of podcasts about the reformation, and I was suddenly struck by the parallels in language and commitment to a world view between the early reformation (crispy catholics etc) and the current spat with TRAs and science.

To the extent that either I am alone in my own little universe (which I am quite happy with, thank you) or someone else must have noticed.

Anyway it does provide for a brief distraction if you want to not only examine the parallels, but suggests which side equates to which.

I guess someone, somewhere is working on a PhD around the western christian manifestation of the current transgender discussions. If not they have have that one on me 😎

As this is FWR, I thought this was going to be about traybakes. 😋

www.mumsnet.com/talk/mumsnet_classics/3527870-Which-is-the-tastiest-Protestant-traybake?

The huddled masses under Protestantism (and this includes the CofE which is basically reformed Catholic with some Protestant knobs on so that pretty extreme 'I will have a table, not an altar, no the bread definitely does not become the body of Christ, but I do believe in the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues' brigade, can join in too) require believers to seek their own salvation so they must obey the various rules (which they should check up on and learn) but also read the sacred texts, which include not only the Bible but other commentaries upon it, and to meditate on the scriptures. So not at all like the trans lot who expect belief without examining the text (examining the text is very, very important for Protestants).

Nobody ever suggested Joan was a witch.

Which is why I put ‘and others found guilty of heresy’

As pointed out earlier, Protestants believe that salvation is through faith alone. So they don’t need to follow any rules to be saved. The idea that they must obey rules in order to be saved is heretical to them; that was the point of the reformation

The Bible is the only sacred text.

People got burned for heresy, and for other political crimes where they had come up against civil power. Accusing people of being witches and carrying out witchcraft, and executing them for that was an aspect of early modern protestant countries. And in some of those countries a lot of women were among the accused.

I didn't say the Bible was the only sacred text. But Christians of any persuasion are expected to study the scriptures and obey the rules - if you break the rules you will come unstuck. 'By grace you are saved and not by works' is true, but if you believe fervently in the death and resurrection of Jesus called the Christ and then go out an commit mass murder, I think your salvation is in severe doubt - the rules apply, these two: love God with all your heart and all your mind, love your neighbour as yourself. They comprehend all the law, which is to be obeyed (altho not shell fish mostly).
This Protestant thinks Calvin was incorrect in his ideas of the 'elect' and that salvation could be seen in someone's prosperity or lack thereof (origin of Protestant work ethic).

In England Protestants (Cromwell etc) killed the King (Catholic) - that was ideology taken to the extreme. Who is most likely to be harmed, tras or GCs? We know who gets and makes death threats.

😂

Am I the only one who hasn't got a clue what OP is on about.

As a committed agnostic and Partick Thistle supporter, I would say that definitely nonbinary traybakes are the way forward.

Definitely this ^. 🤣

Dwimmer · Today 13:05

Remember the witch burnings were a Protestant thing.
Catholics burned witches too and others found guilty of heresy, including Joan of Arc

It's true that Protestants burned people, but if I recall, not at the levels of Catholics. I read a history of Elizabeth 1st and it said that the populace was frightened of Mary marrying Philip, because burnings would return.

Apparently, she burned fewer during her reign than did Mary, in one particular year.

Anyway, for what it's worth, we seem to be in the final throes of the Trannish Inquisition, so I'll go Catholic.

I just love this
The Church of England is Catholic with some Protestant knobs….so well put Grammar 😆

It fascinates me the way the same dynamics and arguments play out throughout history. I'm currently working on a research project relating to prostitution in the Victorian era, and the debate around whether sex work is work etc seems to have been very similar - both at the time and in terms of historians' takes on the topic.

Mary’s burnings were of the Protestants though. Nothing to do with witches

I wouldn't really argue with that. (Unless i was paid to in a newspaper column).

Stirabout · Today 16:00

Yes, I thought this was Protestant vs Catholic?

Yeah, well I'm not the brightest of bunnies, so was convinced somebody much cleverer (and younger and better looking than me) must have written an OpEd or somesuch similar with the suggestion.

Turned out not to be the case. Which does rather beg the question with is the point of historians ? They can't all be doing podcasts nowdays ?

yes They were
and I wonder Sinner boy if you’d survive it with a name like that 🤫
personally I’d be too busy stirring my porridge to notice 😇

Thanks! I've just got back from Rouen and indeed they did.

It's less about the actual beliefs and more about how each side treated the other.

as a Catholic, you had to believe that protestants were heretics and therefore needing their eternal souls saving.

Contrariwise. as a(n English) Protestant you had to believe that the monarch was the head of your church and to not accept that was heresy and treason. And this was built on a narrative that Protestants were eschewing superstition and ignorance in favour of the emerging concept of science as transcending myth and fable.

I am suggesting that the conduct of that fascination debate might seem familiar in 2025 Britain.

As I said, I'm not the brightest of bunnies, so if I haven't explained myself, I apologise. You can't force a debate, and I was merely curious.

The progress of the Trans Rights movement - and I think what’s now called the omnicause - does remind me of the Reformation and also events like the French Revolution (and the English one, I suppose) in the way in which initially the ideas which broke from the mainstream/previous way of doing things were actually pretty sensible, even though the people who expressed them were seen as radical, but as the movement progressed those initial revolutionaries had to become increasingly radical or were overtaken and destroyed by their own movement, as well as being fought by the defenders of the status quo.

They are not exact parallels, obviously, but the Protestant church continues to splinter hundreds of years later. And in modern leftist circles, purity spirals certainly don’t spare those who not long before were of the ‘elect’ if they express impure thoughts or ideas. There is no logical end point to the revolutionary thinking and as it’s not really based in existing structures (or indeed reality) it’s dangerously vulnerable to being ripped away from any logical organising framework and becomes all about belief/faith/purity.

SerendipityJane · Today 16:48

That's fine, I'm certainly not claiming to be cleverer than others, either. I just wanted to say that both sides burned one another and slip "Trannish Inquisition" into my post.

Interesting question. How might Catacomb Saints fit into the discussion?

There are a few still around in Catholic churches, left over from the Counter Reformation. (Skeletons from Rome's catacombs, identified as saints, and sent off to marginal Catholic churches in areas such as Regensberg, Germany, where I first came across them.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catacomb_saints

Their skeletons were certainly elaborately dressed, not sure if they were biologically matched with their assigned names. Nowadays, they are apparently seen as a bit of an embarassment and are being removed.

and also events like the French Revolution

To be fair, the revolutionaries did also make a point of following science and rejecting superstition.

So the resonance with a modern day stance that is built on science fighting something more ephemeral isn't devoid of merit ?