Are toilets still allowed to be cleaned by members of the opposite sex?

[PoisedRubyLion]

I see signs saying toilets may be cleaned by members of the opposite sex in a lot of places. Is this allowed after the supreme court ruling? If a male cleaner was in there it would be a mixed sex space.

FFS, we’re not talking Lady Macbeth levels of gore. But even a small amount of blood on your hands will make the water and sink red. I presume most women are like me and try to be discreet and wait until other toilet users have left the sink area.

And as for the partially undressed thing - you’ve never changed in the works loos before going out for the evening? Or had to take off your top and clean it because it’s had something spilled on it? Or got caught in a heavy rain storm and stood under the dryer trying to make yourself respectable? I have done all these things at some point, and seen others doing similar.

I mean I know you’re here to shore up your own beliefs rather than engage in good faith in any way, but your inability to understand the concept of informed consent actually makes me embarrassed for you. At this point I hope it IS an act, otherwise you really shouldn’t be out and about by yourself.

The trans umbrella is very broad; the minority are transsexuals and the majority are fetishists and autogynephiles Surely you cannot be unaware of this.

I expect most women to feel differently about a six foot man with a beard in overalls with a mop and bucket who's cleaning the floor compared to a six foot man with a beard in a dress coming out of a cubicle.

I have no idea how, but you are ALWAYS on here whenever I come on, and you always get a kick out of responding to my points without saying anything of value. You seem to enjoy mocking my points rather than responding to them. I don’t enjoy engaging with you because it’s never in good faith so I won’t again, but I just want to let you know that I see you always replying to me.

Because when you see the ‘male cleaner present’ sign you know there’s a male cleaner there and can wait till they’ve finished. Allowing men to USE female loos means I don’t get informed about the presence of a male.

I find it to be an interesting exercise because it shows the beliefs on here that are being held about trans people being perverts (not that people on here are really hiding those beliefs any more).

You appear to be of the opinion that trans identifying men are unwilling / or incapable of following the social convention, that men do not use female only spaces without consent, thus implying that these men are willing to sexually harass women to satisfy their own needs. Do you really believe that all trans people would act so inappropriately?

A female cleaner was waiting outside the male toilets for them to become free, in my office today

What’s your source for the majority being fetishists and autogynophiles? Please give me peer reviewed research and reliable statistics for that bold claim.

I think that the mere act of a trans identifying men using a women's toilet is an act of harassment. Therefore, to answer your question, all trans people who would use the wrong sex toilet are acting "so inappropriately". The trans identifying men who are not willing to harass women to satisfy their own needs are the ones who use the men's toilets.

In this thread I’m not actually arguing that trans women should be able to use women’s loos.

I’m pointing out the cognitive dissonance of the male cleaner scenario being acceptable.

You may be okay with the informed consent approach, but even that is not in line with the ‘no men in women’s spaces’ mantra. Not all women are.

Dr Az Hakeem is a consultant psychiatrist, medical psychotherapist and group analyst. He trained in medicine at University College London, in psychiatry at the Royal Free and in forensic psychotherapy at the Portman Clinic, where he later worked as a consultant until leaving the NHS.
He was one of the earliest and most outspoken gender-critical psychiatrists and the only consultant psychiatrist specialising in psychotherapy for adults with gender-identity conditions. He set up and ran a specialist UK psychotherapy service for adults with gender dysphoria for 12 years using both one-to-one and group analytic therapy with a less than 2% rate of patients deciding to pursue physical treatments. He stopped seeing gender patients in 2022 due to the political climate and now works exclusively in private practice based in Harley Street.
He is the author of Trans: exploring gender identity and gender dysphoria and more recently Detrans: when transition is not the solution; a member of CAN-SG, professional patron of LGB Alliance, and Honorary Clinical Associate Professor at UCL Medical School.'

In his book Detrans he says (p 30 Kindle) "The numbers of non-transsexual trans have always greatly outnumbered those who would in the past been referred to as a 'transsexual'. The majority are males with a fetish involving some appropriation of aspects afforded to the opposite sex."

What if the male cleaner was wearing a dress and lipstick?

Exactly.
And such decent trans identifying males do exist. There is a lovely one who started an AMA post saying he agrees with the judgment.
He has done the hormones and some surgery and feels female, but knows he is a biological male.
Like the vast majority of males who recognise women's boundaries and accept that they need to stay out of women only spaces, he is not a threat to women.
I'm sure there are countless other decent, trans identifying males who respect women's rights.

I've pointed out why a male cleaner looks and acts differently when cleaning a women's toilet than a trans identifying man using a women's toilet. But now that you've pointed out the possible conflict, it may be that there will have to be complaints to employers and service providers about male cleaners if for no other reason than to stop trans identifying men arguing that because a male cleaner was allowed over the threshold to clean, they should be allowed over the same threshold to pee. (It's really not a strong argument.)

So totally unbiased and peer reviewed then 😂

for someone who isn’t talking to me you don’t half directly address me a lot

I do enjoy mocking your points to be honest because they’re often quite silly and not really worth responding to seriously

Thanks for letting me know that you see me <waves>

I have no probem with male cleaners wearing a dress and lipstick while doing their job, so long as they announce their presence when coming in, give women a chance to leave if they wish before entering, and leaving a sign outside to warn other women of their (temporary) presence so they can make a choice to either enter or wait until the cleaning is done.

My overall goal is more to point out the way people see trans people vs other groups and how bizarre it is. It’s a basic exercise for checking prejudice:
if you see one group doing something, then see another group doing the exact same thing, if you despise one group for it and not the other, you should reflect on why.

There would be legitimate questions about the motivations of a male cleaner putting on lipstick and a dress in order to go and clean a women's bathroom.

The next step I imagine would be a human rights claim from the trans identifying male cleaner about how his rights were being infringed by not being allowed to clean women's bathrooms, especially at busy times of day.

I am reminded of the similar claim by the trans identifying male police officer demanding the right to conduct intimate searches on women.

you are failing in your goal as we see trans people just like other males. A trans cleaner doing his job in the women's loos : fine, as long as he follows protocols as cleaners in trousers do.

It's not the trans that's the issue. It's the refusal to respect women's boundaries.

Dr Hakeem lists nine types of transvestites (eight of which involve sexual arousal or excitement), autogynephiles and a 'variety of other fetishists' - all under the trans umbrella.
You cannot dismiss him with nervous laughter, I'm afraid.

Your goal is noted. But in the examples you give, it's not the "exact same thing". A cleaner is there to clean, not "just to pee". So the fact that people feel differently about it isn't the evidence for prejudice that you think it is.

No. It's about motive.

I know what a male cleaner is doing in the woman's toilets. His job.

But a trans-identifying man? Why are they there?

Wait - I know this one. They just want to pee!